Obama Care

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

FD - I do believe that, one hundred percent. Part of healthcare is people having access to healthcare. We have good care in this country, but people having access to it is the issue. You saying that the World Health Organization is for 'everyone having healthcare'. No shit. The world health organization wants everyone to have health insurance and access to care?

The fact that you don't want everyone to have access to healthcare is more shocking. I love how people skirt the whole France issue that have a socialized setup that provides amazing healthcare to all of their residents. We're one of the very few developed nations without national healthcare coverage.


Ranking 37th — Measuring the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System | Health Care Reform Center

Take a look at this, and tell me that we're #1. We're lagging, severely in a lot of areas. The U.S. has the best health care system in the world

Instead of blindly saying "The US is better than everyone" for every single category. Try to look and see that we're lagging behind a lot of countries in a lot of areas. That's not to say this isn't a great country, but we need to constantly improve to stay on top.

I'm sick of seeing people bitch about making this country better. Is the system perfect, absolutely not. It has flaws. But it's interesting, we have no problem with tax hikes to pay for bombs that cost billions, yet taking care of our own people, people lose control. Holy crap, you might have to provide decent insurance for your employees?!?!?!?! If you can't afford it, shut your doors and go get a job for someone that can.

This is ridiculous. People on this site are always talking about how the US needs to stop taking care of every other country and take care of ourselves. This is a step in the right direction. As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

We need much more reform than we have now. But I'll take this for a start.

So now the dream of opening a business in the US is dependent on providing health care to all employees? Its easy to tell who has and has not run their own business.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by firstdown

So now the dream of opening a business in the US is dependent on providing health care to all employees? Its easy to tell who has and has not run their own business.

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

Ok , but what if one in 5 business have to cut 1 job , how would millions losing a job be a benefit ? Nobody is saying do nothing , I would be fine with screening for illness/disease in our public schools/universities , proving care / help with cost for things like MS , MD , Type 2 Diabetes or car/industrial accidents . But to your point about FD or people on the left caring more is not true IMO, why don't people on the left go open business and hire people and provide HC if they care more ? . Why can't we have a HC fund where we could donate money , that would help poor with Med Bills ? You know we have Foundations and organizations that we are free to donate to . Maybe people on the left are more comfortable paying for things they want with other peoples earnings ? Getting everyone into a house in the 90's did us alot of good , right ? I with you on helping others , just not with unintended consequenses that we usually get .

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

As a libertarian, I don't consider myself either left or right, but I can tell you the issue some people have with the "giving for the greater good" argument:

I have no problem with people who are willing to give their own money to people genuinely in need. But there is a problem when those on the left use the police powers of government to force others to pay for things like health care in exchange for keeping the people who make those promises in political power.

It's easy to be compassionate when you're using other people's money.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

Yea, I pay myself first then what is ever left after I pay my bills is what I pay my employees. Some months they don't make very much but we have some really big months and I really get a big pay check and throw them a small bonus. Once when I felt really nice I let one of them have the day off so they could attend their fathers funeral. They must like this because they have all been working here for over 10 years.

The left wants to take from others to do what they call help out other people. The right knows that a hand up is better then a hand out. After years and years of these failing social programs that do just enough to keep people poor the left has not figured out the part of the helping hand up. Well the left running the country know this because they have made a living out of promising the poor they will get them more money for their votes.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.

[JoeRedskin]

Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?

"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits is the greater good.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Daseal

... As matty said earlier, what's not fair is 60% of all bankruptcies come not from poor financial planning, but needing a medical procedure. That, in my eyes, is complete bullshit.

But then you have to ask, what makes medical procedures so expensive that they cause bankruptcies?

I would argue malpractice lawsuits and government interference is what drives up the costs more than anything else. Take these points for instance:

-- You cannot purchase insurance policies across state lines, which would open the market up to the forces of competition. Why?

-- Various state mandates force insurance companies to offer non-essential coverage for things like hair transplant surgery, pregnancy, and alcohol and drug treatment coverage. Picking and choosing what specific coverage you'd like without government mandated items is illegal. Why? That does nothing but drive up the cost.

-- Employer provided coverage doesn't actually belong to you and personal ownership of those health policies is illegal, meaning you cannot take it with you if you leave that employer or you get fired. Again, WHY?

[MTK]

Well I was speaking in general, wasn't trying to hide that fact. Tell me it's not a big part of what this debate is about. Not saying either side is more wrong or right, it is what it is.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Do you not you feel a certain level of responsibility for your employees or is it all about everyone for themselves?

I mean this is basically the fundamental difference between the left and right. The right is generally more self concerned and the left is generally more willing to give for the greater good of everyone else.

The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.

Nice post GM. You are spot on IMO about initiative and self-reliance . Two examples , 1) in 2003 I guy blew through a parking lot , on to the highway and slammed me , pretty much destroying my car . We < Va. > a few years earlier had Gov. Gilmore ( R ) , reduce the car tax 70% , the result was I bought a newer $20,000 truck .Had we still had to pay the full tax rate , I would have bought a 5,000 truck , which the state would have collected less in taxes , and less fuel efficient . 2) with lowering of Capitol gains taxes < NG / Bush > I trade more , win for me , more taxes for uncle Sam .

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?

"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits is the greater good.

Ding ding ding!!

[budw38]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Whoa whoa - nice generality there Matty. First, is FD running sweatshop? or is he providing a good wage to his employees? Does he treat them well in general? Doesn't that show a level of concern? All of a sudden your employer is a selfish prick if he is more concerned with keeping the business running and profitable? Do you understand that every additional mandated expense means fewer people employed by a small business?

"the greater good"?? Perhaps keeping more people employed as opposed to fewer with better benefits is the greater good.

I worded for FD , one day I showed up late , first he docked me pay , then he tried to make a cowboys jersey all day , when I said no , he hit me and stuff..... I'm so embarrassed

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Spread the wealth. Gotcha.

I think the policies and thinking of the right in general encourages the initiative of the individual. It fosters more of an attitude of self-reliance instead of being provided for by big government. "Self-concerned" implies that they don't care about anyone else. I don't think that's true.

I thought self concerned was less harsh than self centered, and really what I mean is not selfish, just more concerned about his/her own immediate situation.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

The right is selfish and says "F you" to the rest of society; The left is all about helping people and "the greater good".

Yah - No condescension in that sentiment.

Really not what I meant at all