Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

That's crap. If you are unable to admit that playing a guy before he is ready can potentially ruin a guy's psyche or even worse put him in position to get hurt then you clearly are clueless on this. To say that you only get better with experience is what is garbage. Experience for the sake of experience doesn't absolutly make a player better. A player has to have the tools both physically and mentally to use that experience as a positive.
If a QB goes in and throws 6 interceptions in a row but has absolutely no idea why it happened said player can't get anything from that experience other than that he sucks. Once you start being unable to contextualize your experience and use it as a learning tool then experience becomes valuable. To contextualize you need mental maturity and an understanding of your mission and the proper technique and procedures to achieve your mission. This is the basic way humans learn not just NFL QBs.

I find this to be ridiculous, I guess we're just not going to agree on this whatsoever. I say that if you play and you have a bad experience, and it hurts your psyche or your confidence or whatever, then you clearly weren't cut out for the QB spot in the first place. Some things can't be taught, and moxie is one of them. Either you have it or you don't, and if adversity hurts your psyche or confidence, then you don't have it.

I don't want QBs on my team that need to be coddled and encouraged when they have a bad game. The coaching staff has way too many other things to be worried about to concern themselves with how little Johnny wants his mommy after a bad game. If you throw six interceptions, you have to come with the skill to put it behind you, and you have to come built with the determination to get better. That cannot be taught. Joe Gibbs has said it himself, QBs have to endure a lot, and if they can't handle it, then they're not really cut out for the position.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I find this to be ridiculous, I guess we're just not going to agree on this whatsoever. I say that if you play and you have a bad experience, and it hurts your psyche or your confidence or whatever, then you clearly weren't cut out for the QB spot in the first place. Some things can't be taught, and moxie is one of them. Either you have it or you don't, and if adversity hurts your psyche or confidence, then you don't have it.

I don't want QBs on my team that need to be coddled and encouraged when they have a bad game. The coaching staff has way too many other things to be worried about to concern themselves with how little Johnny wants his mommy after a bad game. If you throw six interceptions, you have to come with the skill to put it behind you, and you have to come built with the determination to get better. That cannot be taught. Joe Gibbs has said it himself, QBs have to endure a lot, and if they can't handle it, then they're not really cut out for the position.

Competitors usually have big egos (not brash, mind you, but big egos... they're confident) and when they look bad it does get into their head, and gibbs is one of the first to commend someone, and publicly defend them after a bad game... such as brunell at AZ and PH, and remember when Robert Royal had all those drops... and he mentioned in the press conference that Robert was a core guy and he just had a bad day but has been outstanding and all of that... that in a sense was coddling.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

Competitors usually have big egos (not brash, mind you, but big egos... they're confident) and when they look bad it does get into their head, and gibbs is one of the first to commend someone, and publicly defend them after a bad game... such as brunell at AZ and PH, and remember when Robert Royal had all those drops... and he mentioned in the press conference that Robert was a core guy and he just had a bad day but has been outstanding and all of that... that in a sense was coddling.

Yeah pats on the back are helpful in terms of showing support for a guy, I didn't mean that coaches shouldn't need to pay attention to those kinds of things with players. But a pat on the back didn't make Royal better. That's just consoling him after a bad game. Royal bounced back because he was determined to show that he could do better. He's a guy with good character and he came back determined.

Gibbs did the same with Brunell last year. He publicly defended him all year. But the reason Gibbs publicly defends guys like Royal and Brunell is because he knows they have that inner determination not to give up when things aren't going well.

Royal took his bad game hard, and was near tears in the locker room. But that doesn't mean he was going to get discouraged. I want QBs like that. And if we put Campbell in the game and he throws 6 picks and he gets discouraged and down on himself, then I want him off my team.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And if we put Campbell in the game and he throws 6 picks and he gets discouraged and down on himself, then I want him off my team.

Good point. I want the guy that throws six picks, and responds to it with "Eh, no big deal...".

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Hog1

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of mastery in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the QB master is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with WHAT IS. I believe PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. I know Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.

Well he has in the past, before Theisman went down there was a lot of talk about Gibbs being to loyal to Joey T., and to be honest Theisman time had passed, Theisman was hard to watch late in his carreer, and yet he wouldn't yank him, understandably. But Gibbs had to do a major sell to get Brunell to come to DC, if you remember Brunell wasen't inthrawled to coming here because he felt he could still start, knowing Patrick was the future here, what do you think he was promised? No way Gibbs made that trade and paid that kind of money for a very possible backup! Gibbs made commitments to Brunell, Ramsey was on the outside looking in before he ever met Gibbs. Gibbs has no ties to Ramsey, and if you believe you can win with either than who would you go with? It's obvious the player who you are heavily invested in. I am not so much pro Ramsey as I am pro Skins, and with that I want to be the best we can be as a team, and that is why I back Ramsey because I have alway's felt he would make us better as a team than Brunell.

The fact is I am not a homer in any sense of the word, that is what allows my objectivity, homers agree with anything and everything their team does, they join forces with every decision made within the organization, if Gibbs say's this, or that, that's it do not question it, nobody is perfect, or right all the time, and that includes Gibbs, AND MYSELF as well.

The point I am trying to make which is my opinion, is that Gibbs was under a lot of heat to make Brunell pan out, he spent 43 mil, of Snyders money and gave up a #2 pick, for a QB who would have been released and signed for a backup roll and paid accordingly, one of the reasons we gave up a #2 was because Gibbs didn't want Brunell to hit free agency knowing Brunell didn't want to come here, Brunell on his own would be looking to try and start somewhere's else.

Last season is a big example of Gibbs loyalty to brunell, there isn't a member here who didn't want Brunells head last season, and probably every last person here wanted Ramsey, yet Gibbs stuck with the guy no matter how bad it got, and it got bad, so bad Gibbs finally made the switch, now either Brunell was hurt and Gibbs played him anyway, or Gibbs offense was just flat out lame? Either way Brunell was as horrible at the QB position last season as I probably have ever seen.

Now I don't have a problem with Gibbs making it work with Brunell, in fact I am very glad we are finally on the right track, I just feel and will alway's feel until Ramsey proves otherwise, that he's a better fit for a Gibbs offense, and for our team, and feel he was treated unfairly. But I also have alway's felt the bigger issue wasen't the QB's inability to play the position, but Gibbs inability to run the offense, that seems to have been rectified, and as Brunell has become better, so do I believe Ramsey would have blossomed as well.

But it's water under the bridge now, and I will be routing for Brunell big time to succeed tommorow.

QB controversies are for the off-season, this is playoff time!

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by offiss

The fact is I am not a homer in any sense of the word, that is what allows my objectivity, homers agree with anything and everything their team does, they join forces with every decision made within the organization, if Gibbs say's this, or that, that's it do not question it, nobody is perfect, or right all the time, and that includes Gibbs, AND MYSELF as well.

Quick question.
Are the people who say things like "I trust Gibbs to make personell decisions even when they seem ridiculous" homers?
There are a lot of people around here who basically blindly follow what Gibbs does and says and I was wonderng whether you thought they were homers?

[70Chip]

I don't believe that Ramsey's reputation is such that a trade would bring value. I think the best thing for the Redskins would be to keep him around another season. I suspect Patrick (and his agent) believe that he is a starter and would not quietly accept another season as backup. Of course coach pulled a fast one on the Jets last year that nobody saw coming so maybe he can salvage something put of this situation. Does anyone know the specifics of Ramsey's contract? Please advise.

[wheeler]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I've thought every since the Giants game that Gibbs would be very, very reluctant to let Ramsey go. It would have to be a really sweet deal.

your right he's not going anywhere.he's (ramsey) a tough kid. gibbs likes 'em tough

[Defensewins]

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.
I like that!

Offiss
I have nothing against you, but Hog1 called you a Ramsey-homer, not a redskins-homer. Frankly after reading a ton of your pro-Ramsey posts, I have to agree with Hog1, you are a Ramsey-homer. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you were coach of the Redskins staring tomorrow, you would bench Brunnell and start Ramsey. Right?
Even though Brunnell had a great year and Ramsey hasn't PROVEN he can be a dependable NFL QB, you stated in no uncertain terms you would put all your chips on Ramsey. I think you have said that Ramsey he is a better QB than Mark Brunnell and Campbell. That is basing alot on potential. That is a Ramsey-homer.

[skinsfanthru&thru]

not to nit pick but wasn't it a 3rd round pick that we gave up for Brunell?
I know I agree with others that posted that this should have been handled differently, but if gibbs honestly saw Ramsey having the potential to lead this team in the future, there is absolutely no way he would have given so much for Brunell and then once again for Campbell. And from a man who is extremely devoted to the success of this franchise and a very reliable past in choosing qbs, for me personally that speaks volume of Gibbs lack of faith in Ramsey. Call me a homer if anyone wants but Gibbs has shown what he was doing in the past especially involving this position so until proven 100% wrong, I for one will trust his choices. There is no way Ramsey stays with the team past next season so we need to get something for him while we can, simple as that. oh and GO SKINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[poncho]

they should get rid of campbell before ramsey, i was not to impreesed with the logic of that pick in the first place.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.
I like that!

Offiss
I have nothing against you, but Hog1 called you a Ramsey-homer, not a redskins-homer. Frankly after reading a ton of your pro-Ramsey posts, I have to agree with Hog1, you are a Ramsey-homer. There is nothing wrong with that.
If you were coach of the Redskins staring tomorrow, you would bench Brunnell and start Ramsey. Right?
Even though Brunnell had a great year and Ramsey hasn't PROVEN he can be a dependable NFL QB, you stated in no uncertain terms you would put all your chips on Ramsey. I think you have said that Ramsey he is a better QB than Mark Brunnell and Campbell. That is basing alot on potential. That is a Ramsey-homer.

Wrong, I have said that I would be reluctant to make any switch this late in the season, Brunell right now has to be much more in tune with the offense and his recievers than Ramsey who has sat the bench all season, that is to much of a risk to make a switch now. But if I was the coach when Gibbs took over there would be no Brunell, or Campbell, and we would have plenty of draft picks this year. Oh yea Arrington would have been dealt before we renued his contract, [just thought Id throw that in ]

I guess it's how you look at the definition of homer, my belief is that a homer is someone that agrees with everything his team does right, wrong, or indifferent, Am I a Ramsey supporter? Yes, but it's not as if I support the guy after he's failed continually just because I like him, he hasen't had a legitamate shot to play in a real structured NFL offense, if I were a homer I would be saying we are going to win every week, quite honestly I get occasional flack for being quite the opposite, I had some posters question whether I really was a skin's fan, I just don't believe in blowing smoke up someone's A**, I am not going to blow it up mine.

Obviously I do base a lot of what I believe Ramsey can be on potential, but if you believe one player is better than another then I guess everyone is a homer in some sense of the word. I have been surrounded by Giant fans here in jersey my whole life, believe you me I know what homer's are!