Brunell vs. Bledsoe

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Huddle,

1st: Santana Moss was injured in 2004. He missed two games completely and was hindered in many others. So his ability did actually change.......this fact is reflected in his statistics. So if Moss stayed in NY, I'd expect him to post numbers more in line with his 2003 numbers and/or his 2005 numbers, assuming he has a healthy QB and stays healthy himself.

2nd: I'm not playing this game where you pick small excerpts of my post and try to argue each individually. The point of my post was to show that this thread is pointless because the entire professional sports world disagrees with you. We debate sports (specifically football) on this site. We all use statistics to support our arguments, and when we want to argue the statistics we qualify them by pointing out facts that we all know (like Santana Moss being injured in 2004 and the fact that his QB couldn't throw the ball over 20 yards downfield). You're one example doesn't make statistics an innappropriate measuring stick in every single argument. In the case of Bledsoe and Brunell, the statistics are still solid basis on which to form an argument for or against each player.

3rd: Burden of proof shifts from claimant to respondent once a prima facie case is made. Therefore, Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the NFL because he is the most accurate QB, makes the best decisions, has the strongest arm, and has made the most of having the least in terms of supporting cast around him. Now the burden shifts to you: prove me wrong.

Let me save everyone some time here......you can't prove me wrong because you've paralyzed yourself with your own argument. What can you offer me to make the case that Aaron Brooks is not the best QB in the NFL?

[Huddle]

PSUSkinsFan21

The point of my post was to show that this thread is pointless because the entire professional sports world disagrees with you.

If I had said that the statistics used by pro teams are worthless, you'd be right. Since that isn't my position, you have made an irrelevant point as I said before.

In the case of Bledsoe and Brunell, the statistics are still solid basis on which to form an argument for or against each player.

I know your opinion and disagree.

Burden of proof shifts from claimant to respondent once a prima facie case is made. Therefore, Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the NFL because he is the most accurate QB, makes the best decisions, has the strongest arm, and has made the most of having the least in terms of supporting cast around him. Now the burden shifts to you: prove me wrong.

Nice try ...but you have only added further claims to the original. You've proven nothing.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Huddle

PSUSkinsFan21
Nice try ...but you have only added further claims to the original. You've proven nothing.

I've proven that you have no way of arguing the merits of any player in the NFL. I've made assertions regarding a certain player. Those assertions must be taken as admitted by you since you have nothing to counter my argument.

See if you want to argue "proof", you've really picked the wrong guy to argue with. You've mentioned "burden of proof", which I will take as a legal term of art. In our legal system, when one party makes a factual averment to another party, and that second party does not dispute the factual averment made by the first, then that factual averment is taken as admitted by the second. So you see, I've made my assertions. You've offered nothing to counter those assertions. In our system of jurisprudence my assertions would be deemed admitted and my assertions would be taken as established, thereby constituting the requisite level of "proof" to win my case. So by refusing to dispute my claims, you have essentially admitted that Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the NFL. Congratulations.

See, you keep trying to skirt the real issue here. You have backed yourself into a corner that you can't get out of. If statistics can't be used to argue a point regarding players in the NFL, then you can offer nothing to me to dispute my assertions. If we were to accept your views on statistics and their propriety in professional sports discussions, then all of us would be left making unsupported claims about players that simply could not be refuted. Hence the reason you cannot offer any argument against my statement. Statistics make the difference between bald, unsupported assertions and reasonable arguments regarding players.

[Huddle]

PSUSkinsFan21

I've proven that you have no way of arguing the merits of any player in the NFL. I've made assertions regarding a certain player. Those assertions must be taken as admitted by you since you have nothing to counter my argument.

You didn't make an argument. You made a claim about a player that you cannot prove. Nor can you prove that you have any valid way of comparing one player to another using statistics.

See if you want to argue "proof", you've really picked the wrong guy to argue with. You've mentioned "burden of proof", which I will take as a legal term of art.

You can take it any way you like, but it doesn't work that way in debate and this isn't a legal issue.

If we were to accept your views on statistics and their propriety in professional sports discussions, then all of us would be left making unsupported claims about players that simply could not be refuted.

Nah. Luckily, outside of the courtroom, logic prevails. It is simply illogical to say that you can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm right.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Huddle

PSUSkinsFan21

You didn't make an argument. You made a claim about a player that you cannot prove. Nor can you prove that you have any valid way of comparing one player to another using statistics.

You can take it any way you like, but it doesn't work that way in debate and this isn't a legal issue.

Nah. Luckily, outside of the courtroom, logic prevails. It is simply illogical to say that you can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm right.

You know what, I'm done with this ridiculous argument. You're being difficult because you know you're wrong. Everyone here sees that. Everyone here disagrees with you. I'll take that as a win and walk away.

You can think whatever you want about your argument and your point, but the fact is you refuse to make any affirmative statement about Aaron Brooks right now because you know that the minute you do you argument will come crashing down. We would go round and round with our opinions, and you would never be able to prove me wrong because you've taken away the one thing that could prove me wrong: statistics.

Just know this: the minute you ever make an affirmative statement about any player in the NFL, I'm going to be all over it ...... because by refusing to back down from this absurd argument, you've essentially prohibited yourself from ever being able to support any argument you want to make about a player's abilities or whether one player is superior to another.

To the rest of you: good luck.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Huddle

You didn't make an argument. You made a claim about a player that you cannot prove. Nor can you prove that you have any valid way of comparing one player to another using statistics.

he most definately DID make an arguement and you have absolutely no way of disproving it. Nice try, but it works both ways. There's no magic Huddle immunity, and yet you don't see this is exactly what you've been saying the entire time. "Your wrong, I'm right, and its true cause i said so." That just doesn't work.

As for filtering out co-variances, that's been covered and played out. It can be done, its done all the time, and just cause you might be lazy or unwilling to pursue such endeavors most certainly does not mean it cannot be done. Logic and math specific to such study (engineering and statistics) go into these things in great detail.

You can take it any way you like, but it doesn't work that way in debate and this isn't a legal issue.

so now you not only get the benefit of one way arguement (your opinions are evidence, others' opinions are just opinions), you also get to frame the rules on the fly to suit your needs as well? convenient.

Nah. Luckily, outside of the courtroom, logic prevails. It is simply illogical to say that you can't prove me wrong, therefore I'm right.

you've been proven wrong on every point, yet you still continue. I'd definately say there's something illogical alright.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Nice try ...but you have only added further claims to the original. You've proven nothing.

First: You're wrong. He did not add further claims to his original statement. He made statements which support and provide a basis for the original claim. Given your stance on the use of "mostly useless" statistics to "prove" a point, your earlier invitation for him to prove his statement relying on statistics is disengenous at best.

He has made a claim: Brooks is the best QB. He then supports it by asserting that Brooks excels at those things that good QB's need to do. Simply b/c he did not support his assertion in the manner you have asked him to does not mean he hasn't offered support. Can you disprove any of his supporting assertions and, thus, call into question his final conclusion?

What must he provide as a basis for support of his claim? Accepting your theory that stats are mostly useless, any use of stats will inevitably fail.
The circular nature of your argument is truly amazing: You assert stats are mostly useless for providing a comparison of players. Then assert someone has not proven their point b/c they have not relied on stats to compare the player to others.

IF, instead, it is your position that, as he is arguing that stats are important and valuable comparisons, he must provide a statistical basis for his position re: Aaron Brooks, THEN you have failed to grasp the point of the statement or are deliberately failing to answer it.

The statement that "Brooks is the best QB" was not made as an assertion of the truth, but, rather, as a demonstration that, w/o the use of or reliance on stats, such statements are simply a matter of unsupported opinion. In the common use of the english language, opinions unsupported by facts are know as either bias, when asserting opinion in favor of something, and prejudice, when asserting opinion against something.

As the statement was made not as a truth to be proven, but rather to demonstrate the impossiblity of your position (that stats are mostly useless), the burden falls upon you to demonstrate, in an objective fashion, w/out any reliance on stats, that it can be disproven. Please do so.

[Huddle]

JoeRedskin

First: You're wrong. He did not add further claims to his original statement. He made statements which support and provide a basis for the original claim.

He made a claim. The burden of proof is his to prove that claim. Did what you are generously labelling "supporting statements" prove anything? No. They were just additional unsupported claims.

Given your stance on the use of "mostly useless" statistics to "prove" a point, your earlier invitation for him to prove his statement relying on statistics is disengenous at best.

Why disingenuous? He thinks he can prove something with stats not me.

He has made a claim: Brooks is the best QB. He then supports it by asserting that Brooks excels at those things that good QB's need to do. Simply b/c he did not support his assertion in the manner you have asked him to does not mean he hasn't offered support.

Let him support it anyway he wants to. I don't care. But I'm asking for him to prove his claim not for additional unsupported claims.

Can you disprove any of his supporting assertions and, thus, call into question his final conclusion?

I don't have to. It's his claim not mine.

What must he provide as a basis for support of his claim? Accepting your theory that stats are mostly useless, any use of stats will inevitably fail.

His proof is his problem. Yes, it obvious to me that he'll fail but I can't help it if the facts aren't on his side.

The circular nature of your argument is truly amazing: You assert stats are mostly useless for providing a comparison of players. Then assert someone has not proven their point b/c they have not relied on stats to compare the player to others.

Strawman. Quote please. Where did I make that assertion?

IF, instead, it is your position that, as he is arguing that stats are important and valuable comparisons, he must provide a statistical basis for his position re: Aaron Brooks, THEN you have failed to grasp the point of the statement or are deliberately failing to answer it.

Maybe I wrote something that has given you the wrong impression. Where did you get the idea that I'm making statistical proof of his claim a requirement? I don't care how he proves his claim.

[That Guy]

so huddle you agree brooks is the best QB in the league? if not why not?

you know you can't disprove it so you ignore the request. way to go, but you lose.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Maybe I wrote something that has given you the wrong impression. Where did you get the idea that I'm making statistical proof of his claim a requirement? I don't care how he proves his claim.

Post 120:

Assigning no or "almost no" value to statistics, however, makes it impossible to support any argument about any player. Let's see how this works: My Statement: Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the league. Prove me wrong, Huddle.

Originally Posted by Huddle

The burden of proof is on the claimant. The Aaron Brooks claim is yours to prove. When you try to do it with statistics, I'll simply argue that your stats are worthless and give you reasons.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Maybe I wrote something that has given you the wrong impression. Where did you get the idea that I'm making statistical proof of his claim a requirement? I don't care how he proves his claim.

HOW do you suggest he prove his claim without stats.

oh sage master, please explain how its possible, so far you've been adamant in shooting other people down, now show us how you prove things without stats and without opinions (as you've shot down BOTH already).

[JoeRedskin]

As for the rest of your statements, I'll sum up as you have, yet again displayed your obtuseness or idiocy.

You have made the affirmative claim that stats are mostly useless for comparing players. In refuting that claim, PSU has asked you to refute the statement that Aaron Brooks is the best QB in the league w/out relying on stats.

No one on this forum believes that statement to be true, and, thus, it is on you to disprove an obviouslly false statement w/out relying on facts.

[MTK]

Does anyone know how much we can save by releasing Brunell??

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Does anyone know how much we can save by releasing Brunell??

It all depends on the stats. If you like I could start a thread and we could discuss.

[JoeRedskin]

I just read through the last few pages of this thread. Normally, I have a blast debating meaningless academia - as, inately, I am a meaningless academic.

This thread, however, is far too academic and meaningless even for me.

Well, maybe not. Huddle - simple question and follow-up:
Do you believe there are ANY criteria that provide a basis for objective comparison of two players playing the same position but for different teams? If so, what are they?