D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)

[T.O.Killa]

Originally Posted by GoSkins!

Zorn seems to be stubbornly sticking to a base 5 guy protection scheme and demanding that his o-line learn to block. Gibbs would routinely keep 8 guys in to block and send 2 guys out on routes. I think the o-line got spoiled.

Yeah, it is very similar to Spurrier. I was shocked that he let Giesinger out the on the left side, all alone. I was shouting at the tv, that Gibbs would never have done that. His excuse was he did not have time to make that decision. That was completely unexceptable. The whole game was very frustrating to me.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by T.O.Killa

Yeah, it is very similar to Spurrier. I was shocked that he let Giesinger out the on the left side, all alone. I was shouting at the tv, that Gibbs would never have done that. His excuse was he did not have time to make that decision. That was completely unexceptable. The whole game was very frustrating to me.

That one play definitely was unbelievable. How in the world do you send in the backup center to play LT and leave him on an island against a fierce pass rush? That just blew my mind.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Oh lord. Here we go. Our issues lie with personnel much more than coaching, IMO. The WCO takes time, Snyder knew this when he hired Zorn. Plus Zorn has made real strides with Campbell. Are we really gonna blow it up and start all over AGAIN? Another new offense?

Did Danny really expect a 10 or 11 win season right away when he hired Zorn? Maybe Snyder should read the "did the 6-2 start raise our expectations too high" thread.

Sadly, I would not be surprised if he fires Zorn.

I hope he doesn't fire Zorn, but to be honest I do not think the WCO is going to get us to where we all want the team to go. I also fail to see where he has made strides with JC. The guy had very solid early games, but post bye has been mediocre. If we go 2-1 the last 3 weeks Zorn will be fine. The only way Snyder fires him is if we lose the rest and look awful in doing so. If Zorn is retained he has to retool the WCO or throw it out completely. One of the problems with our WR, other than not catching the damn ball is that Gibbs had a longer vertical passing game. Moss and co were originally brought in for speed and to spread the field. The shorter stuff gives the DB a shorter field to cover and lets the LBs more able to help out, thus speed is negated. This WCO really hampers the Moss effect for us.

[724Skinsfan]

Only time will tell (great song!) what's going to happen. I'm not happy with what's happening right now, but I can not fathom a coaching change next year. Zorn is stuck between developing his young players and winning football games. He's not going to throw in the towel to get his young guys in the game to gain experience with his system at the expense of benching the veterans that have stayed with the team through some serious times. He shouldn't be put under the same magnifying glass as the other rookie head coaches. Harbaugh and Smith get new QB's and RB's to play with. Zorn has to retrain his QB, keep a good but unfamiliar running attack and learn the speed of game-time decision making, all the while calling the plays on offense. He should get a pass regardless of our record this year. If things don't get progressively better as the 2009 season goes, then he should be let go.

Like a few others have said, I think a couple of "old guard" coaches and a few players will be dismissed after this year. We need a new WCO-minded offensive line coach.

[YellowBirdy]

I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by YellowBirdy

I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.

Excellent post.

[Schneed10]

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

[A10sROCK]

Zorn won't be fired. There are several reasons for this statement:


1. Vinny hired him and isn't going to give up on this experiment that easily.


2. Snyder knows that if he fires a HC after one season, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE of any consequence will come here. The coaches that turned Snyder down last pre-season did so because of the perception that the Redskins have a chaotic and amateurish owner / coaching situation. He will stay the course no matter what to build faith for future hiring.

3. People forget that Snyder was going to give Steve Spurrier another year even after the team began to melt down horribly in his second season. Spurrier quit.

4. gibbs may have left because he knew this team wasn't going to be much better this year. I'm sure Gibbs will tell Danny to keep Zorn.

The problems the team faces will force Zorn to toughen up and release players and coaches this off-season. I see no way that Zorn will be fired. People just look at the Shottenheimer issue and forget what's happened since then.

[A10sROCK]

Danny Snyder was going to give Spurrier another season [ss quit]. Spurrier had a .45 win/loss record and the team was melting down.


Danny Snyder was certainly going to give Joe Gibbs another season or more [he quit]. Gibbs II was at a .45 win/loss record.


So why would Snyder fire Zorn when we are still above .500 or at . 500 in his rookie season?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

[A10sROCK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience. We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program. That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.

[vallin21]

I honestly think Zorn is gone. When you make Portis mad the FO gets pissed. He then lost 4 pretty winnable games. You never know about Synder and his decision making and thats what should scare me if I'm Zorn.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by A10sROCK

Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience. We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program. That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.

But did management really have interest in "building a new program" in the first place? I mean they kept the defense, kept the same rushing attack, kept nearly all the starters, traded picks for an aging Jason Taylor...

It seems to me they were just trying to build off what Joe Gibbs had already built. If the coach is incapable of carrying Gibbs' leadership torch, then I think their intention is (and should be) to get someone who can.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.

I can buy that. I mean it may be that he's just not cut out to be more than an Xs and Os coordinator. We shall see