republicans, is this helping, or hurting your party

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Miller101

Finally! I can agree with a republican about something! I can't believe it!

But, how can your party be the way to go when it has a Disc Jockey leading it?

First off it was the White house that started taking on Rush and their attempt to make him the spokes person of the party. He is not. Like Chenney or not I have the feeling that history will show he did what needed to be done after 9/11 like it or not. Sometimes someone has to do the dirty work.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

The folks who wrote the case study don't really matter. He was prosecuted with 19 counts of violating the law and was found not guilty on all 19 counts.

From the point of law absolutely correct.

However, the statistics mentioned from the Kansas Dept. of Health should be considered in the context of your earlier post of situations a) and b). The issue raised by the person who wrote the case study that Tiller was performing at least 50% of his late-term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) where there the mother's life was not in danger appears to be borne out in the statistics.

What isn't shown (I'm sure by design) is whether the reason for the abortion to "Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" was a physical or mental health issue. If the case study is true, that Tiller was using "mental health" issues as justification for the late term abortions, while not illegal, his actions are much morally worse than if he was legitimately trying to save women's lives or aborting unviable fetuses.

KDHE Center for Health and Environmental Statistics

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by saden1

There are only 3 late term abortion clinics in the entire nation, without him there are only 2.

I do believe this in itself says a lot. Late-term abortions, in any situation, are highly controversial at best, downright illegal at worst.

Originally Posted by firstdown

The rape thing is a very poor choice as I'm sure most victims find out very quickly if they are not prenant and don't need to wait until their third trimester to have an abortion.

I generally agree with this. Those who take the position that abortion is justified by rape occurrences really can't act 5-6 months isn't enough time to make a difficult decision. Obviously, a situation that provides life-threatening health risks to the mother is way murkier.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I do believe this in itself says a lot. Late-term abortions, in any situation, are highly controversial at best, downright illegal at worst.

I generally agree with this. Those who take the position that abortion is justified by rape occurrences really can't act 5-6 months isn't enough time to make a difficult decision. Obviously, a situation that provides life-threatening health risks to the mother is way murkier.

I agree that abortion should be provided in rape cases just in the first trimester or something like that. I'm pretty neutral on the whole abortion thing until it comes to the late term stuff then it starts to turn my stomach.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

From the point of law absolutely correct.

However, the statistics mentioned from the Kansas Dept. of Health should be considered in the context of your earlier post of situations a) and b). The issue raised by the person who wrote the case study that Tiller was performing at least 50% of his late-term abortions on viable fetuses (babies) where there the mother's life was not in danger appears to be borne out in the statistics.

What isn't shown (I'm sure by design) is whether the reason for the abortion to "Prevent substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" was a physical or mental health issue. If the case study is true, that Tiller was using "mental health" issues as justification for the late term abortions, while not illegal, his actions are much morally worse than if he was legitimately trying to save women's lives or aborting unviable fetuses.

KDHE Center for Health and Environmental Statistics

What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a serious illness as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression antepartum depression is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).

People whose arguments are mainly based on god should not be taken seriously.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by saden1

What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a serious illness as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression antepartum depression is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).

People whose arguments are mainly based on god should not be taken seriously.

Uh, no, I don't think being diagnosed with a mental disorder can justify a late-term abortion. Understanding the seriousness of many mental disorders, it's not on par with a direct, cause and effect life-threatening unviable fetus situation. It just isn't the same thing.

There is a time at which a women's mental health should be of primary concern to her physician. What you're saying is that, if left untreated for the first 7-8 months after conception, the entire process should be re-evaluated? Sorry, but I can't buy that there would ever be a situation where a late-term abortion would "make the most sense" for mental health. It's a strawman.

Your distrust for diety-based arguments is duely noted, though I would think you'd be best off avoiding as opposed to discrediting. Lest you be committing a logical fallacy by baselessly dissmissing a widely considered factor in arguments of morality.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

What you're saying is that mental illness isn't a valid reason to abort viable fetus. I find this take ridicules knowing that mental illness is as much of a serious illness as physical illness if not worse. Like postpartumt depression antepartum depression is no joke. Often the chemical imbalance (can be categorized as physical illness too) brought about by pregnancy is so sever that abortion is the most logical course of action less you want depression to go untreated (not a good idea due to the fact that it can lead to psychosis if untreated, isn't that right TTL?).

Depression isn't a valid reason IMO to abort a viable fetus (baby) in the third trimester. Depression can be treated. Babies can be adopted. Death can't be turned back or fixed.

[saden1]

This can not possibly be the best arguments by you lot. Your professional medical "expertise" notwithstanding mental illness onset is neither always instantaneous (it can progressively get worse) nor is always treatable (through medication and counseling). Granted, some might abuse the system by merely claiming they're suffering from mental illness when they are not but the prospect of abuse shouldn't preclude mental illness as a valid reason.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by saden1

This can not possibly be the best arguments by you lot. Your professional medical "expertise" notwithstanding mental illness onset is neither always instantaneous (it can progressively get worse) nor is always treatable (through medication and counseling). Granted, some might abuse the system by merely claiming they're suffering from mental illness when they are not but the prospect of abuse shouldn't preclude mental illness as a valid reason.

It never was a valid reason. A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning.

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

It never was a valid reason. A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning.

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.

The left can come up with one excuse after another as to why its OK to have a late term abortion just like this doctor did time after time. Its like they don't even want to adress the nature of this procedure.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

It never was a valid reason. A serious concern yes. But I think you have to downplay the seriousness of the late-term abortion to arrive at your conclusion. You previously compared life threatening propositions to postpartum depression; as serious a form as it comes, but still not quite the same thing nor the same reasoning.

I'm not trying to downplay anything here, but I think you need to re-assess.

If you are being serious you have failed miserably...totally...it's a disaster! I am neither downplaying nor up-playing anything but I do believe late term abortion due to mental illness is valid medical reason not because "I think it is" but because doctors think it is. You seem comfortable accusing me of downplaying late term abortion and yet even more comfortable dismissing its validity entirely for mental heath reasons. What exactly is the basis for your conclusion or are you simply relying on your morality?

This is terrible stuff man, really, and not well thought out. What if the mother is so f*cked up she commits suicide or wants to abort her own baby at home? Do you intend to lock suicidal pregnant women up in mental institutions or in jails?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

If you are being serious you have failed miserably...totally...it's a disaster! I am neither downplaying or up-playing anything but I do believe late term abortion is valid medical reason not because "I think it is" but because doctors think it is. You seem comfortable accusing me of downplaying late term abortion and yet even more comfortable dismissing validity entirely for mental heath reasons. What exactly is the basis for your conclusion or are you simply relying on your morality?

This is terrible stuff man, really, and not well thought out. What if the mother is so f*cked up she commits suicide or wants to abort her own baby at home? Do you intend to lock suicidal pregnant women up in mental institutions or in jails?

If doctors find its such an important issue then why is there only 2 left that still provide this much need procedure? Also your own link does not say the treatment for depression is late term abortion.


What is the treatment for depression during pregnancy?
If you feel you may be struggling with depression, the most important thing is to seek help. Talk with your health care provider about your symptoms and struggles. Your health care provider wants the healthiest choice for you and your baby and may discuss options with you for treatment. Treatment options for women who are pregnant can include:

Support groups
Private psychotherapy
Medication
Light therapy
If your symptoms are severe, your health care provider may want to prescribe medication immediately. There are medications that have been used during pregnancy without adverse affects. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but still beneficial to you.

If you do not feel comfortable talking with your health care provider about your feelings of depression, find someone else to talk with. The most important thing is that someone knows what you are dealing with and can try to help you. Never try to face depression alone. Your baby needs you to seek help and get treatment.

Last Updated: 10/2008

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[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

If doctors find its such an important issue then why is there only 2 left that still provide this much need procedure? Also your own link does not say the treatment for depression is late term abortion.


What is the treatment for depression during pregnancy?
If you feel you may be struggling with depression, the most important thing is to seek help. Talk with your health care provider about your symptoms and struggles. Your health care provider wants the healthiest choice for you and your baby and may discuss options with you for treatment. Treatment options for women who are pregnant can include:

Support groups
Private psychotherapy
Medication
Light therapy
If your symptoms are severe, your health care provider may want to prescribe medication immediately. There are medications that have been used during pregnancy without adverse affects. Discuss with your health care provider what he/she feels is safest for your baby but still beneficial to you.

If you do not feel comfortable talking with your health care provider about your feelings of depression, find someone else to talk with. The most important thing is that someone knows what you are dealing with and can try to help you. Never try to face depression alone. Your baby needs you to seek help and get treatment.

Last Updated: 10/2008

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Everything is black and white.

[firstdown]

I love how when don't know how to answer something you come back with a comment like that.

[saden1]

It's a perfect response requiring little explanation. Why waste time seeing how you think depression is always treatable via non-abortion means? Abortion can be the treatment, this is obvious to me.