Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

No.... we want a QB that has potential to work out. We already have drafted a QB that has not worked out in Campbell and Brennan.

And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Anderson was good a couple of seasons ago, but stats-wise JC played better than him and Russell last season. And while yes, stats are not everything (a blasphemy for GTripp), I'm sure a number of QB-starved teams would focus on that (just has some teams fall in love with combine results).

That being said, while I would definitely welcome a good draft pick for Campbell, I don't think we necessarily need to part ways with him. Other people are in charge now (not Vinny or Snyder) and even if we draft Bradford or Clausen, we need a QB to start right away so we don't throw a rook QB into the fire.

Lets see... the Falcons did pretty well throwing a Rook into the fire as did Detroit, Baltimore, and the Jets. I too believe stats aren't everything. I believe there is more JC then his excellent stats people keep refering to. Yes he's "Safe" with the ball. Safe doesn't mean he is connecting with his receivers all the time, it simply means he's not fumbling, or throwing interceptions. JC got around the latter by throwing the ball out of bounds so no one could get it or throwing a dirt ball.

What it doesn't speak to is his failure to read defenses and adjust his protection, get through his progressions fast enough, failure to finess the ball in some situations (it's not all about drilling the ball with power), and accuracy (too many balls behind the receivers or over thrown).

But since he was a starter for a few yrs I'd think we would get a low 1st round out of him or 2nd round. I'd settle for a 2nd round but you have to go with what the market will give or keep him. If a 3rd and a 5th is all we can get then either cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet or take the trade.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Lets see... the Falcons did pretty well throwing a Rook into the fire as did Detroit, Baltimore, and the Jets. I too believe stats aren't everything. I believe there is more JC then his excellent stats people keep refering to. Yes he's "Safe" with the ball. Safe doesn't mean he is connecting with his receivers all the time, it simply means he's not fumbling, or throwing interceptions. JC got around the latter by throwing the ball out of bounds so no one could get it or throwing a dirt ball.

What it doesn't speak to is his failure to read defenses and adjust his protection, get through his progressions fast enough, failure to finess the ball in some situations (it's not all about drilling the ball with power), and accuracy (too many balls behind the receivers or over thrown).

But since he was a starter for a few yrs I'd think we would get a low 1st round out of him or 2nd round. I'd settle for a 2nd round but you have to go with what the market will give or keep him. If a 3rd and a 5th is all we can get then either cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet or take the trade.

I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.

Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.

I'm not a Russell fan. Yes he sucks. I don't think anyone would have picked him up but the Raiders cause Al Davis likes his players to be the fastes out of the draft. Forget skills.

I too agree we should keep JC. As much as I'm bashing him.... he is safe with the ball. I'd cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet. I see no other Vets out there that are better then him. Which means I'm making him a backup unless the Rookie QB needs time as you said. Dude I'm with on this. I just don't think JC is our Franchise QB and am ready to move on in the sense that we need to be looking for our Franchise QB. We simply can't keep saying after 6yrs "maybe JC will work out this yr". He's a great backup. Nothing more. Keep him cause if he's required to start the season or be backup and step into a game he will be safe with the ball and not be a screw up like some back ups.... ie; Collins.

I guarentee you just like Smootsmack has said Shanahan will not let the OL be mediocre. stop fretting. If nothing else know that Shanahan was know to have the best OL's in the NFL. He'll get what he needs. and as far as Rookie QB being thrown into the fire you oppinion and mine has always been one of the interesting debates among coach's. Some believe in throwing the Rookie in right away as the Falcons, Ravens, and Jets have and they had some success. Then there's the other side of the coin, look at Patrick Ramsey. Throwing a Rookie in with no protection will destroy the teams valuable draft pick. I totally agree. I guess I just have more faith in Shanahan fixing this cluster of an OL then other people.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I'm not a Russell fan. Yes he sucks. I don't think anyone would have picked him up but the Raiders cause Al Davis likes his players to be the fastes out of the draft. Forget skills.

I too agree we should keep JC. As much as I'm bashing him.... he is safe with the ball. I'd cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet. I see no other Vets out there that are better then him. Which means I'm making him a backup unless the Rookie QB needs time as you said. Dude I'm with on this. I just don't think JC is our Franchise QB and am ready to move on in the sense that we need to be looking for our Franchise QB. We simply can't keep saying after 6yrs "maybe JC will work out this yr". He's a great backup. Nothing more. Keep him cause if he's required to start the season or be backup and step into a game he will be safe with the ball and not be a screw up like some back ups.... ie; Collins.

I guarentee you just like Smootsmack has said Shanahan will not let the OL be mediocre. stop fretting. If nothing else know that Shanahan was know to have the best OL's in the NFL. He'll get what he needs. and as far as Rookie QB being thrown into the fire you oppinion and mine has always been one of the interesting debates among coach's. Some believe in throwing the Rookie in right away as the Falcons, Ravens, and Jets have and they had some success. Then there's the other side of the coin, look at Patrick Ramsey. Throwing a Rookie in with no protection will destroy the teams valuable draft pick. I totally agree. I guess I just have more faith in Shanahan fixing this cluster of an OL then other people.

As to first two points in bold, it's hard to say JC is "safe" with the ball. Sure two years ago he was hardly intercepted, but he barely threw any TDs either, and our offense as a whole was pretty awful. This past year he threw more INTs, and also fumbled a bunch. In fact, in 2009, he threw 15 picks and fumbled 13 times. There are worse starting QBs out there for sure, but he's not really "safe" with the ball. Full disclosure, I think he should be our day 1 starter this season.

As to the third point, I agree. Let's remember that as recently as two years ago, Mike Shanahan drafted Ryan Clady. He knows the OL is a priority for sure.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Bigreds77

DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.

and since you kept a spreadsheet please enlighten us

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by celts32

Because he hasn't really done much. He will probably never be more then a pretty good player. Russell is worthless but why would JC be worth more then Derek Anderson? Anderson had a season a couple years ago that was better then anything JC has done. I don't want to completely trash JC but i just think it's time to move on and i would be thrilled to get a #3 pick in the process.

A pretty good player at the quarterback position though should grab more in a trade than a pretty good player at the defensive tackle position, for example.

I would propose that Campbell has had three better seasons than Anderson's best, but I'm probably overrating Campbell's 2007 in doing that (he had some talent around him that year, probably comparable to what Anderson had). Anderson more or less has three good games in his career, and those haven't weathered the test of time.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I'm sick of hearing this....



Even if it isn't with a first round tackle, I want the team to put a lot of focus and resources in building the offensive line and not "chance it" with just low round picks.

Didn't we use to say the same thing about Bugle? "Oh he can coach anyone up."

I want for the team to draft at least a 2nd round tackle, to do their homework on the limited talent in free agency, and have a plan to address the offensive line, and not just hope that a whole bunch of mid to low rounders just work out.

You know it seems that I and several others have repeatedly advocated taking a QB in the 1st (I lean toward Bradford-slightly, SS33 leans toward Clausen-by a large margin) and addressing the OL with our 2nd round pick and beyond...yet all that seems to get through is "Take a QB!!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by GMScud

There are a lot of deals/discussions in Indy during the combine. Teams will be wheeling and dealing during the next week or so.

I find it hard to believe we'd trade Campbell without getting a QB in return. That would leave us with Todd Collins (who I doubt will be a Skin in the fall) and Colt Brennan. No bueno. If we do trade JC for just draft picks, we'd obviously be looking to draft Clausen or Bradford, but what if they both go in the top 3? Granted, that's unlikely, but still. And then where would we be?

I think they're pretty confident that either Clausen or Bradford would be there at 4. Plus, if the rumors are true, Pike and McCoy are guys they're interested in in the 2nd round. Personally, not a huge fan of either one and I don't totally buy either of those rumors.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.

I am not sure which game(s) you were watching. I dont recall Jason having 4-7 seconds to get rid of the ball. No one generally has that long to get rid of the ball. So lets be realistic. Jason was one of the most beat up QB's in the NFL. I dont think anyone argues that nor the fact the Oline was god awful. However, he did finish upper half of the league when the season ended, so if you look at it that way then he could be a far more productive QB if given the average amount of time in the pocket.

Now, for drafting a QB with the #4 pick. I just dont think is maximizing the pick. Especially if we are giving Campbell every opportunity to keep his job. What if Jason goes and lights it up (if the line is better) and we get into the playoffs. What now! You have Campbell who did what everyone expected behind a good Oline and now a #4 pick sitting on the bench. Wasted pick. Now, since we will probably offer JC a 1 year tender, now since he is a FA, we get nothing in return because we are not going to invest big money in him, we aren't going to tag him, and now no way to trade him. This of course is saying he has a good year.

2nd - say we draft a QB, and ignore what we should be doing by drafting the best olineman in the draft, he gets the job and now he is getting the crap beat out of him behind the oline. That is no way for a rookie QB to start a career and become productive.

We draft oline at 4 and in the 2nd. See whats available in the later rounds. Take whats there...RB, CB, LB, whatever. We are going to sign a couple of players in FA anyway.

About trading some of the players.. just dont see it. Who is going to trade for Moss, Portis, Randel El, JC??? NO ONE... 1st off Moss and Randel El can't get open if I am covering them. Portis is a 30 year old RB that no one is going to want. LT just got cut and Portis aint no LT. No one is going to offer a 1st and 3rd for JC, and no one is going to trade for him next year because he will be a FA. So we basically waste another 1st round pick and a 3rd to move up to get him.

I just hope this FO has a clue this offseason. I stand behind what ever they do, QB or no QB.

[NYCskinfan82]

I to stand by whatever the FO does but i would feel better if they traded back and went OL, OL, OL & you fill in the rest. But like i said whatever they do i will support with a grain of salt.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.

It says a lot about JC when you are saying he's less of a turd than Russell. Talk about setting the bar low. You are right, I'll take JC over JR any day.

[MTK]

4-7 seconds to throw is an eternity in this league. Having that much time is pretty rare. Most QBs have 3 seconds at the most. You might want to check your stop watch there SBXVII.

[Chico23231]

Its funny reading all the speculation of who we will pick or if we trade etc. Its exciting and fun. But one thing I have noticed is:

Where has all that JC love gone??? and now hearing the arguement of general importance of the QB position...and yet we fo sho have the worst O line in the NFL...

Im just finally happy we have great people making these personel decisions.