Updated: Hightower Torn ACL/Moss Out 5-7 Weeks

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I think I was brave enough to suggest T.O. yesterday. Why? Moss is out 5-6 wks which I figured. Moss was our best WR. AA has had a ton of drops with Rex and it didn't change with Beck. Basically AA was our deep threat and Moss was our possession WR.

Gaffney has caught nothing long. Paul is only used for blocking. Austin could step up but why has it not happened previously? We need a possession WR, one who can keep defenses honest and one who will have to be accounted for by the defense to free up AA, Gaffney, Austin or whoever. I don't foresee Hankerson doing that or Stallworth.

T.O's extra 400-600 yards and whatever TDs(possibly 3-4) this season would mean nothing to us this season if we don't get a ton of wins from him. Even if we add him, we're not really in contention for the Super Bowl. We are 3-3 now, and the addition of an aging WR with diminishing skills who does not know the playbook will not make us suddenly go 7-3, finish with a 10-6 record, and take us to the NFC Championship game, or even past the divisional round. You add T.O to increase your win total. I don't see him increasing it that much to be worth it. T.O will not save us from being stomped by one of the "real" contenders like Green Bay or New Orleans.

Those extras yards and touchdowns also do not rollover to the next season. He'll have to start from square one and outproduce Gaffney or Amstrong. That means better stats than either one of them.

Then, there's the matter that T.O is might be a lemon and thus might not better than what we have. His production has decreased(hasn't had a 1000 yard season since he was in Dallas) and he is coming off an ACL injury. His speed is not going to be what it was when he was 27 and he very well may not get that burst back until next season, if he ever does. A receiver with such limited athleticism will not be making a great impact for us.

T.O is well-known for his dropsies too. He even led the league in them in 2006. A drop machine can hardly be considered worthy of a possession receiver role, where sure hands are an absolute necessity.

With so many potential flaws, I see Terrence Austin as much better alternative. He has a rapport with Beck and does NOT drop the ball willy-nilly.

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

You got cussed about because you're accusing me of making false assumptions about you, not because of T.O. Everything was fine until you started labeling me as a Hankerson lover and you sticking by your assumptions when I made none of it on my end. You attacked ME and now are turtling. I cussed you out because you didn't even read my posts and you stick by your assumptions over whatever I say. I have no respect for that. NONE. You can believe T.O will be fine for us and I won't care.

But I won't sit idly back and let you you calumniate me and play the victim card when you're lock yourself up in your own ivory tower of ignorance

Yeah I made an accusation based on what I was reading. Whether it was wrong or right, is steeped in opinion. You said you aren't fine, I just disagreed. But I dropped the accusation and went back on defending the TO pickup and why I think Hankerson may end up a dud. To which you continued freaking out and yelling.

As a longtime member of this site I think it's pretty ridiculous that I got cussed out over something so incredibly trivial and apparently, that's a-ok, especially when I did nothing but be civil and not hostile towards you in anyway (i.e. cussing and showing my ass) but whatever. It's been real.

Peace.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

TO's going to Tennesee...or so goes the rumor. Beside what do we have Paul, Hankerson, and Austin for?

I wondered if TO might be on the radar but giving the younger guys time makes more sense long run.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

T.O's extra 400-600 yards and whatever TDs(possibly 3-4) this season would mean nothing to us this season if we don't get a ton of wins from him. Even if we add him, we're not really in contention for the Super Bowl. We are 3-3 now, and the addition of an aging WR with diminishing skills who does not know the playbook will not make us suddenly go 7-3, finish with a 10-6 record, and take us to the NFC Championship game, or even past the divisional round. You add T.O to increase your win total. I don't see him increasing it that much to be worth it. T.O will not save us from being stomped by one of the "real" contenders like Green Bay or New Orleans.

Those extras yards and touchdowns also do not rollover to the next season. He'll have to start from square one and outproduce Gaffney or Amstrong. That means better stats than either one of them.

Then, there's the matter that T.O is might be a lemon and thus might not better than what we have. His production has decreased(hasn't had a 1000 yard season since he was in Dallas) and he is coming off an ACL injury. His speed is not going to be what it was when he was 27 and he very well may not get that burst back until next season, if he ever does. A receiver with such limited athleticism will not be making a great impact for us.

T.O is well-known for his dropsies too. He even led the league in them in 2006. A drop machine can hardly be considered worthy of a possession receiver role, where sure hands are an absolute necessity.

With so many potential flaws, I see Terrence Austin as much better alternative. He has a rapport with Beck and does NOT drop the ball willy-nilly.

Would you rather play with Moss or with out? Obviously with him. See while he's playing he opens up the field for AA or Gaffney or Stallworth to get open. Now that he's out 5-6 weeks there will be no one to take away the defenses attention so those other WR's can get open. We need someone who can replace Moss, ie; T.O. I'm not saying he needs to be put on deep routes or go routes, I'm simply saying the team could use him for the short to intermediate routes which would open up the deep field for AA or Gaffney because defenses would have to double up on T.O.

Funny that you mention he would not know the playbook or know which route to run when we have someone on the team right now who fits that mold ..... Hankerson. Plus he doesn't need to know the whole playbook, he just needs to know 10-20 plays.

I also was suprised how you mentioned T.O. drops passes all the time, have you not watched every week when AA drops passes? Gaffney? How about Davis who seems to drop his fair share of passes and thats not counting his tipped passes that lead to interceptions.

Worse case scenario T.O. comes in and plays just as bad as what we already have. Best case scenario is he comes in and catches a few passes. I think we all know this team is not going to the SB. But catching a few passes for 1st downs might help move the chains which might result in more opportunities for scores.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Would you rather play with Moss or with out? Obviously with him. See while he's playing he opens up the field for AA or Gaffney or Stallworth to get open. Now that he's out 5-6 weeks there will be no one to take away the defenses attention so those other WR's can get open. We need someone who can replace Moss, ie; T.O. I'm not saying he needs to be put on deep routes or go routes, I'm simply saying the team could use him for the short to intermediate routes which would open up the deep field for AA or Gaffney because defenses would have to double up on T.O.

Ok, let's assume T.O can do what you say. Now, specify the concrete benefits T.O gives to us both production-wise and in wins given. What's his expected stat line and how many extra wins do we get for him now and in the future? I've already given my estimates of 2 wins, 400-600 yards(700 if he's really hot), and 3-4 TDs out of the remaining 10 games we have.
T.O needs to provide large benefits to be deemed worthy of the roster spot. The rationale is simple. Since he will provide NOTHING very soon(retirement is looming for him and he might not survive the competition next year), we have to cash out on everything he's got right now. We want stats and need wins from him to make it a worthwhile pickup. I do not see enough wins or stats from T.O now to pick him up over scouring the league for castoffs and the like who might help us win for years after this season.

If I had to guess, I say we'd go 6-10 if we just stick with what we have and everything goes wrong for us for the rest of the season.

Funny that you mention he would not know the playbook or know which route to run when we have someone on the team right now who fits that mold ..... Hankerson. Plus he doesn't need to know the whole playbook, he just needs to know 10-20 plays.

T.O will have a learning curve regardless of whoever else is on the roster. For a short-term vet with a low ceiling, he needs to produce big now or else he's not serving the purpose of his acquistion, which is more wins and more stats.

The only reason Hankerson has a roster spot now is that he is a risky gamble(VERY, VERY low probability) that he will provide some VERY large future returns, just like every other draft pick. T.O is _possibly_ less risky and is supposed to provide some current returns; he has nothing to provide in the future. The matter is which is more valuable to the team: getting returns right now or hunting for future returns.

I also was suprised how you mentioned T.O. drops passes all the time, have you not watched every week when AA drops passes? Gaffney? How about Davis who seems to drop his fair share of passes and thats not counting his tipped passes that lead to interceptions.

Just what are you surprised about? I stated a fact about T.O. A fact about T.O does not change facts about anyone else. If your retort's purpose is to try and prove that T.O is not a pass dropper, you are unsuccessful. We already have players who drops passes. That doesn't make T.O any less likely to keep on dropping passes either. It just means they all are pass droppers. So, the tiebreaker is determine by [potentially] what else each respective WR gives to the team. T.O right now could give more than either Armstrong or Gaffney, but time is not on his side nor is he a guarantee to outdo either. It'll probably be a lateral move when all is said and done.

Worse case scenario T.O. comes in and plays just as bad as what we already have. Best case scenario is he comes in and catches a few passes. I think we all know this team is not going to the SB. But catching a few passes for 1st downs might help move the chains which might result in more opportunities for scores.

For a short-term "sure thing" guy like T.O, he needs to help provide many wins and take us over the top, not just have us save face and finish 8-8.
People will not remember these hypothetical extra wins T.O provides the team this season if there is no "success" this season. This season would just be shelved just like every "unsuccessful" season that has passed whether we go 8-8 or 4-12.

The extra stats T.O provides in 2011-2012 will also do nothing for the 2012-2013 season, especially if he isn't here for that season. Since the draft and FA provide a ton of fresh blood to compete with T.O, him not being here in 2012-2013 is VERY likely.

The only way I'd be on board for T.O is if we cut Stallworth for him. And even then, I'd argue that we could be signing another depth OL or scouring other team's practice squad for something with fresher legs and the ever-so-slight chance (think .0001 probability) of being something more than a goose-egg three years from now.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by mooby

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Ha Love it!!! O'Doyle Rules!

[Jontrem]

Both of these injuries suck for us. Hightower was having a nice game and Moss was having a good season. Looks like we will see more of our young WRs (slight silver lining) and I guess we activate Royster and see what he can do?

I wish them both the best for speedy recoveries. So thats Jenkins, Lichtenstiener, and now Hightower with ACL's...that sucks.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

Yeah I made an accusation based on what I was reading. Whether it was wrong or right, is steeped in opinion. You said you aren't fine, I just disagreed. But I dropped the accusation and went back on defending the TO pickup and why I think Hankerson may end up a dud. To which you continued freaking out and yelling.

As a longtime member of this site I think it's pretty ridiculous that I got cussed out over something so incredibly trivial and apparently, that's a-ok, especially when I did nothing but be civil and not hostile towards you in anyway (i.e. cussing and showing my ass) but whatever. It's been real.

Peace.

Wait does SS know that? I thought you were his "side dish" :cheeky-sm

[MTK]

T.O. makes no sense here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Wait does SS know that? I thought you were his "side dish" :cheeky-sm

She dumped me for Slingin' Sammy. Turns out I wasn't SS enough for her...sigh

As to this whole TO talk. I think, even though she dumped me, D Rave is one of our best, most level headed members here. I don't agree with her though that TO makes any sense here. We don't need a quick band-aid at WR. That's not where we are as a team. And we especially don't need a 38 year old coming off of major surgery. I also think she's a bit too critical of Hankerson too soon. But that's my opinion. As she has hers. I read the GameDay thread a couple if times. And I didn't really find that she "went after" SCP. I think maybe in the heat of the thread some unfortunate assumptions were made. D Rave shouldn't feel like she can't express her opinion. Even if it's tge wrong one .

Unfortunately, logic and common sense tend to go out the window particularly during the GameDay threads. People get all charged up and start posting and reacting absurdly. So generally we cut a little slack, knowing that we're all idiots on game day. But that was two days ago, so let's move on.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

She dumped me for Slingin' Sammy. Turns out I wasn't SS enough for her...sigh
...

So I was gonna ask if I could change my name to SeeSkinsSidelineShout. Double the SS all the time!

LOL

[skinsfaninok]

Owens to Redskins highly unlikely to happen - Rich Tandler's Real Redskins

[SBXVII]

SirClintonPortis,

Your just guessing. No different then everyone "thought" Beck would start and light it up proving that Grossman was as bad as everyone says he is and the savior Beck would change everything and this team would be back in the play off hunt.

Yeah.... that didn't happen, especially against probably the worst defense. So although you can make predictions off of old stats... no one really knows what he will do for us. All I was pointing out is that Hankerson is not doing any better and that considering other teams still might double him up that would leave someone else open or T.O. one on one. I'm not saying bring in T.O. cause he will change everything and he will set this team right. Heck I wouldn't even say that about Moss if he was healthy. No one player makes a whole team.

No different then I said Beck would be just as bad because of the WR's and because the coaching staff would not probably use him to the best of his abilities. Would T.O. come in and solve everything putting up a ton of yrds catching? I don't know, and honestly you really don't know. If the team used him for what he can do now, short to intermediate routes as a possession WR, then AA and Gaffney can go long with their speed. Could he start right away? he's been in the league long enough to know the routes. It would be more about terminology. Coaching staff gets him up to speed on 10 to 15 plays he might be helpful especially on 3rd downs just for starters.

People love to mention how he drops balls. Hello, we are not seeing anything different out of AA, Gaffney, Stallworth, Hankerson...etc. etc. So basically all I suggested was the team going out to see how healthy he is, if healthy then think about bringing him in as a replacement for Moss until he gets healthy. Stallworth has a hamstring injury for which he was out last week. Is he healthy? Is AA completely healthy? Hightower is out for the season. If T.O. looked good I'd think about bringing him in to fill Hightower's spot and play WR until Moss is healthy. Depending on how well or bad he did the team can decide what to do with him later. Cut him. Keep him. Whatever.

[CRedskinsRule]

I was a big supporter of bringing TO in when he left Dallas/Bills on a 1 year basis. But now we have young receivers that we have to get in the mix for playing time. Beck may not be the answer, but TO - at this point - is clearly not. He is old, and I think the fact that no team has interest proves the point that his skills have clearly declined. I would rather go through this year getting our young receivers time on the field, so that whoever we draft will have some targets with experience.

A side note, I think Beck played well for his first start in 4 years. Lets see if he can get going with some time and experience, remember now he will be playing with nearly all the same WR's he had been practicing with. I still expect good, not great, things from him.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

Owens to Redskins highly unlikely to happen - Rich Tandler's Real Redskins

I think he hit the nail on the head:


With the caveat that you should never say never, here are a few reasons why that the Redskins will not sign Owens:

--The Redskins are not sending anyone to Owens’ workout today. When asked yesterday if anyone from the organization was going Mike Shanahan said, “Not that I know of.” If the Redskins were sending anyone, Shanahan would know.

--When Owens was a free agent last year Shanahan, who never comments on whether or not the team is pursuing a specific player, made an exception and ruled out signing Owens. And remember that the Redskins were much worse off at receiver a year ago as Roydell Williams had a roster spot the entire year and Joey Galloway had one for a while, too.

--The Redskins drafted three receivers last April and they also have second-year receiver Terrence Austin. It would be the height of insanity for a team that is trying to build for the future to give snaps to and throw passes to a wide receiver who is going to be 38 in December.
Here is what Shanahan said about Niles Paul a couple of weeks ago:
“He’s going to be an excellent football player for a lot of years…He’s a football player. You can see it on special teams and watching him every day in practice. He’s going to get better and better as time goes on. You guys will be talking about him for a while.”

And here is what he said on Monday about Leonard Hankerson:

Hankerson has been making some unbelievable plays in practice. We put him out there to get an opportunity.

It certainly doesn’t seem to me that the Redskins are anxious to bring in an aging high-maintenance diva to play wide receiver.