How much have we improved player personnel?

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by Skins3

Scherff is a very good player and I like the pick and him. No way was he pure bpa at #5. Also he was drafted to be the RT and was beat out by Moses. Our biggest need was o-line and we drafted 3 offensive lineman last year and 0 this year. Maybe the biggest strength on the team. We maybe selecting bpa. But a factor into that grade to make them bpa is team need.

Don't get me wrong. I love Scott Mc. I'll even buy into him saying he is drafting bpa. But team need effects each players grade. They said before the draft they were going to draft a qb to groom and they did so. How did they know a qb would ever be bpa when they drafted?

While I am a big proponent of BPA, I think saying that is a little misleading. Its not really BPA, as that is subjective to each GM/fan/talking head. Its really more of best player on that GMs respective board. I also agree that team need plays a role in grading, as should scheme fit play a role. In the first draft, McC said he wanted the team to get tougher. So his own preference would make someone like Scherff, who has a ton of toughness, have his grade elevated due to that. McC has said about the pick that Scherff wasnt necessarily the best player when he drafted him, but also said he was the highest rated on his board when he drafted him. I think toughness and need subconsciously gets Scherff a higher grade than Leonard Williams in McCs mind. I think if we were strong on the OL and weak on DL and had a tougher team already, Williams probably would have been graded higher.

IMO, Need will cause a player to get a slightly higher or lower grade in the scouting/judging phase of it all. We were desperate for OL last year, so im sure psychologically, that plays a role in a GMs final grading. An example could be something like a grade, out of a scale of 1-100, go from a 77 to an 80 due to need in the scouting phase (not saying its as simple as a 1-100 grade). But once a GM makes his final board, they need to stick to it.

As for the QB thing. Im sure once you start getting into the lower rounds, you will get a lot more players with equal grades. So its easier to get a specific position then since, if you have 20 or 30 guys with equal grades, you can choose need and still get an equally graded player based on your board.

[KI Skins Fan]

I think the Skins were planning to draft Ryan Kelly because he was the highest rated player they expected to be available at pick #21. When it was time for the Skins to draft at #21, Kelly was gone and the Skins were surprised to find Josh Doctson, who they had rated much higher than 21st, available - so they took him.

The real test of Scot's draft philosophy would have come about if both Doctson and Kelly had been available when the Skins picked at #21. The Skins clearly had a greater immediate need for a C versus a WR (although GM's must plan for future roster needs, as well). Both players met the criteria for the type of player and person Scot wants on his team. So, who would Scot have picked? I think he would have picked Doctson because he was rated higher by the Skins.

The draft is not just about immediate needs and finding players who can start as rookies. It's about adding the best possible players and people to the team. I think that Kelly will be a building block for Indy. I would have liked to have him on our team. On the other hand, I see star quality in Josh Doctson. He will help us this season and blossom into a star in the near future. We fans will be glad to have him.

[SCRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

I think the Skins were planning to draft Ryan Kelly because he was the highest rated player they expected to be available at pick #21. When it was time for the Skins to draft at #21, Kelly was gone and the Skins were surprised to find Josh Doctson, who they had rated much higher than 21st, available - so they took him.

The real test of Scot's draft philosophy would have come about if both Doctson and Kelly had been available when the Skins picked at #21. The Skins clearly had a greater immediate need for a C versus a WR (although GM's must plan for future roster needs, as well). Both players met the criteria for the type of player and person Scot wants on his team. So, who would Scot have picked? I think he would have picked Doctson because he was rated higher by the Skins.

The draft is not just about immediate needs and finding players who can start as rookies. It's about adding the best possible players and people to the team. I think that Kelly will be a building block for Indy. I would have liked to have him on our team. On the other hand, I see star quality in Josh Doctson. He will help us this season and blossom into a star in the near future. We fans will be glad to have him.

Let's not forget the value of a topflight receiver in negotiations/decisions concerning Garçon and Jackson next year. The cap ramifications of having a starting receiver on a rookie contract are huge.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by Skins3

Scherff is a very good player and I like the pick and him. No way was he pure bpa at #5. Also he was drafted to be the RT and was beat out by Moses. Our biggest need was o-line and we drafted 3 offensive lineman last year and 0 this year. Maybe the biggest strength on the team. We maybe selecting bpa. But a factor into that grade to make them bpa is team need.

Don't get me wrong. I love Scott Mc. I'll even buy into him saying he is drafting bpa. But team need effects each players grade. They said before the draft they were going to draft a qb to groom and they did so. How did they know a qb would ever be bpa when they drafted?

Ok, so who was a better player at #5 then Scherff? And it wasnt so much Moses beat him out as Scherff is better off as a G.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by Skins3

Scherff is a very good player and I like the pick and him. No way was he pure bpa at #5. Also he was drafted to be the RT and was beat out by Moses. Our biggest need was o-line and we drafted 3 offensive lineman last year and 0 this year. Maybe the biggest strength on the team. We maybe selecting bpa. But a factor into that grade to make them bpa is team need.

Don't get me wrong. I love Scott Mc. I'll even buy into him saying he is drafting bpa. But team need effects each players grade. They said before the draft they were going to draft a qb to groom and they did so. How did they know a qb would ever be bpa when they drafted?

EQ is right. Who was better?

And beat out by Moses?

WTF are you talking about. Callahan put his best 5 on the field and Moses/Scherff was a better combo than Scherff/Long.

He was a stud this year with a mean streak and is going to be a perennial pro-bowl guard if healthy.

As a rookie he was an every down starter.

HE MISSED ONE OFFENSIVE SNAP BECAUSE HIS SHOE CAME OFF:

Snap Judgments: Packers @ Redskins - Hogs Haven

[Skins3]

He was drafted to be the right tackle. As mentioned earlier Williams, he was the best player in the entire draft (according to 90% of draft pundints)

Why not move Moses to guard? And Scherff to Tackle?
He was a left tackle in college we drafted him 5th overall to play guard? I don't dislike the pick I am not saying it is a bad pick. I am saying we could have traded down(ya ya the phones stopped ringing when the lb was taken) and got scherff in the late 20's possibly in the 2nd round. I am not sure anyone had him as the best left tackle in the draft.

Again I like the player love what the o-line looks like now I could stand to see an upgrade at center.

Imo the tackles are the best players on the other line 1st left 2nd right 3rd Center 4th left guard 5th right guard. We have the #5 overall player in the draft starting at right guard. Does anyone in the league have the 5th overall or better starting at rg? The right tackle that beat him out was drafted in the 3rd round. Scherff started training camp out at RT wasn't doing great they gave Moses a shot and he took full advantage of it.

5th overall pick for a right guard should be perennial pro bowler type player. (Scherff can definitely be that guy.......time will tell)

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Skins3

He was drafted to be the right tackle. As mentioned earlier Williams, he was the best player in the entire draft (according to 90% of draft pundints)

Why not move Moses to guard? And Scherff to Tackle?
He was a left tackle in college we drafted him 5th overall to play guard? I don't dislike the pick I am not saying it is a bad pick. I am saying we could have traded down(ya ya the phones stopped ringing when the lb was taken) and got scherff in the late 20's possibly in the 2nd round. I am not sure anyone had him as the best left tackle in the draft.

Again I like the player love what the o-line looks like now I could stand to see an upgrade at center.

Imo the tackles are the best players on the other line 1st left 2nd right 3rd Center 4th left guard 5th right guard. We have the #5 overall player in the draft starting at right guard. Does anyone in the league have the 5th overall or better starting at rg? The right tackle that beat him out was drafted in the 3rd round. Scherff started training camp out at RT wasn't doing great they gave Moses a shot and he took full advantage of it.

5th overall pick for a right guard should be perennial pro bowler type player. (Scherff can definitely be that guy.......time will tell)

When I started this thread, I thought I was was implicitly asking for opinions on how much we improved player personnel this year. You may have missed all the debate we had about last season's draft but I assure you that we said about all there is to say about where Scherff was drafted to end up playing guard. So, how do you think we've done this year, so far?

[calia]

BTW, speaking of young talent, seeing this article makes me wish this guy were on the Redskins: Landon Collins Pays Tribute To Sean Taylor With Painting. Could you imagine Cravens and Collins on the same team, given their hero worship of Sean Taylor? Kam Chancellor too. It really speaks volumes about how long a shadow Taylor cast for safeties in the league -- in a far too short a time in the league.

Can't wait to see what Cravens can do.

[Skins3]

I do apologize for hijacking the thread. I am new to the site. I did sign up during the draft was recently given permission to post.

Overall
My biggest hole is Center I hope Reiter or Long can make a move at Center similar to what Moses did at RT. Maybe even an udfa can upgrade the position.

Next hole is DT. Maybe ionnodis (spelling) can improve here maybe even Gallete and the Corner play can also buy another half second or full second to get some added pressure.

All other spots on the roster I am comfortable with and even if the season started today I would be OK with Lichty at center and hope the d-line can remain healthy.

Qb not 100% sold on Kirk but I do like the progress. I think any qb in the league would want Garcon,Jackson, Reed, Crowder, and now Doctson to be able to throw the ball to. Behind a very good O-line.

RB- I like Marshall better the Jones. Jones has to hold on to the ball. I like both just love the speed Marshall has.

WR- I think is the strongest deepest position on the team. Last year we skipped a beat with d- Jack out Doctson allows one of the starters to go down and us not skip a beat. I think the tandem moving forward is Doctson and Jackson. My personal favorite of the group is Garcon.

TE- Reed and Davis will be extremely hard to cover at the same time I only think Davis has 1 good year left in him hopefully he has more with being somewhat 2nd string maybe more of a insurance deal if reed can't stay healthy. Be interesting who all makes the team. I look to see Reed Davis Carrier to make the team depending on recovery time. Not a big fan of Niles paul.

O-line I think we have one of the best in football at least top 5. Really hope we can upgrade the center position love both tackles love scherff (possibly move him to lg) could you imagine running behind scherff and Williams with Jones I bet we would get 3rd n 1 every time.

Kicker and punter. I am finally happy with Hopkins and Way. Think way had somewhat of an off year last year maybe not statistically but seemed like when we needed a good punt he would shank or out kick the coverage I know not all of this is on him he just didn't appear as consistent as he was the year before. Hopkins finally booms the kicks out of the end zones and has good fg%. I only see improvement for Hopkins.

D-line. This is question mark for me. Imo there is a hole in the middle DT-NT we have a lot of variables that could go either way to make this position good or bad Corner,olb, and defensive end. I am not sure who is going to play where. I do believe there will be various players play both end and tackle. So I do think we will need other areas of the defense to help make this a good strong unit.

Olb- Between these guys and the corners the are the best this defense has. Can't wait to see Kerrigan and Gallete play opposite each other. Could be 30 sack combo with just them 2.
Preston Smith will be able to spell each one if they get tired I know Kerrigan likes to play every snap but maybe couple plays off here and there will make him more effective in the 4th for some big sacks to seal some games up. Gallete is the? Because of the surgery. Feel confident in Smith if Gallete doesn't seem to get back to old form.

Ilb- this unit is also could use an upgrade Compton and foster did play well down the stretch getting Riley back from an injury may help a little possibly the lb we drafted last year that go injured in training camp will make a move to get in the lineup. Marcus.

DBs- this position could have gone from weakest to strongest in 2015 to 2016. Breeland was our #1 cb to the #2 he did well as the #1 seems to lack 60 minutes focus he tends to give up plays here and there but definitely held his own vs #1 wide outs if we play the same zone defense that leaves corners on one side of the field I expect a lot of balls to come his way. Norman is a player that does make the whole team better. Allows extra time for the rush to get there. Allows breeland to excel on the other side of the ball. Also yet to be determined is he played on one of the better defenses in football last year so just maybe he will be able to instill some practice/study habits upon Fuller and breeland and we can have some very good corners for a long time. Safety is also a ? Hall and cravens is who I see starting at safety Ihenacho was playing well before he got hurt will be interesting to see who does start of those 3.

Offense is playoff caliber borderline championship caliber depending on cousins. The pass catchers are there seems like they are endless. Jackson,Garcon,Reed, Crowder, Doctson,Davis,Marshall?. Offensive line is top 5. Running backs have the potential to be very good with the pass catchers and o-line.

Defense has the potential to be top 10 if they are top 5 I would be extremely suprised.

Special teams should be pretty good. Maybe Crowder becomes full time pr/kr and Doctson starts in the slot. BIG maybe. Crowder seems perfect for the slot. Doctson just sounds to good to sit out a year or play sparingly.

[CRedskinsRule]

Welcome and Good Post Skins3

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by Skins3

He was drafted to be the right tackle. As mentioned earlier Williams, he was the best player in the entire draft (according to 90% of draft pundints)

Why not move Moses to guard? And Scherff to Tackle?
He was a left tackle in college we drafted him 5th overall to play guard? I don't dislike the pick I am not saying it is a bad pick. I am saying we could have traded down(ya ya the phones stopped ringing when the lb was taken) and got scherff in the late 20's possibly in the 2nd round. I am not sure anyone had him as the best left tackle in the draft.

Again I like the player love what the o-line looks like now I could stand to see an upgrade at center.

Imo the tackles are the best players on the other line 1st left 2nd right 3rd Center 4th left guard 5th right guard. We have the #5 overall player in the draft starting at right guard. Does anyone in the league have the 5th overall or better starting at rg? The right tackle that beat him out was drafted in the 3rd round. Scherff started training camp out at RT wasn't doing great they gave Moses a shot and he took full advantage of it.

5th overall pick for a right guard should be perennial pro bowler type player. (Scherff can definitely be that guy.......time will tell)

The player that 90% of pundits, who have never drafted a single player, said we should pick, came in out of shape:

Jets' Leonard Williams says he wasn't in good enough shape to thrive vs. Cleveland Browns | NJ.com

And his excuse was that coaches really focused on conditioning in college and players have to condition themselves more in the NFL.

HE IS A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE, WAS DRAFTED 6TH, PAYED MILLIONS, AND CAME IN OUT OF SHAPE.

McLovin probably believes trivial things like work ethic an character are just as important as raw talent. Skinzman is 100% right. The talking heads on television are wrong more than they are right and make these draft rankings like putting together a Madden roster with measurables.

Seriously, when was the last time a guy on ESPN said a player's lazy reputation will hurt their draft stock.

"IMO" stands for "in my opinion" and not "in McLovin's opinion" because he seems to care not for your Scherff is too good to play RG BS.

McLovin drafted him as a good football player. Like he has mentioned in countless interviews, you worry about how to get good players on the field after you have them on the team.

Cravens is a great example and similar to Scherff. Nobody knows if he is a LB or a SS. Nobody cares because he is a good player.

And, player personnel has improved a lot.

[That Guy]

... late to the party ...

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Skins3

I do apologize for hijacking the thread. I am new to the site. I did sign up during the draft was recently given permission to post.

Overall....

Bro, no apologies necessary, great post. So much to respond to...

Quickly on the Leonard Williams vs Scherff and BPA.

I definitely see where you're coming from. From the positional importance a similarly graded DE trumps a OG. But at the time it was a question of a 'clean' OT(RT) prospect vs a great DE prospect but with medical questions with his shoulder (had post season surgery and didn't bench at combine). That medical question might have (or not who knows?) been the difference in their grade that made Scherff the BPA on their board.

I'm not saying Scherff is a bad pick, I don't think you are either(?). He helped solidify the line and is tough dude that sets a good example. But at the time I would have went Williams and given that Scherff is playing OG I think LW would have been the better pick.

Get to the rest of your (quite comprehensive) post laters...

Originally Posted by ethat001

Good analysis 30gut -- and consistent with what I've read & what Joe Barry was saying. We seemed to do decent on short runs but got gashed for long runs ---> and those long runs are more the LB and safety play on the second level.

Here's a great film breakdown / videos to demonstrate this, ie. comparison between possible run defense w Su'a Cravens vs. Trent Robinson.

Thanks, I made an effort to drill down on the run D in another thread (new look defense) and those were my conclusions. For me the state of the run D is a question of how we use the personnel. During rookie mini-camp Cravens started off at ILB but I still believe in base defense he'll play SS and that should boost the run D. IF he plays ILB in base I don't think he'll have the same issues that Compton had with run fits and taking on blockers.

I can't wait to see what Stephen Daniels does in camp. Dude is the definition of a 34 ILB thumper.

[calia]

Meanwhile, the Eagles' personnel situation continues to amuse: Sproles avoiding OTAs after Eagles fielded trade calls - NFL.com

I love the fact that they've become the face of dysfunction in our division.

[That Guy]

i heard sproles was just out of state with his family and he'd be there for mandatory stuff when it started. so might be nothing.