The FINAL Kirk Cousins Saga thread. 5.0

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

https://sports.yahoo.com/former-reds...191102503.html

"I don't see special" Scot M on Kirk

Although I agree with Scot, Kirk is a good QB that needs the help of other really good players around him to win many games. The roster now, just isn't going to cut it

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[rocnrik]

What figure do you think Cousins could have been signed for years ago when he first started after RGIII didn't pan out? And even if we could have signed him then to a long term contract for reasonable money don't you think he would at some point wanted his contract re done. I along with most of you believe the FO dropped the ball on this whole mess HOWEVER I'm not convinced we would not be dealing with a hold out at this time..what do you guys think?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by rocnrik

What figure do you think Cousins could have been signed for years ago when he first started after RGIII didn't pan out? And even if we could have signed him then to a long term contract for reasonable money don't you think he would at some point wanted his contract re done. I along with most of you believe the FO dropped the ball on this whole mess HOWEVER I'm not convinced we would not be dealing with a hold out at this time..what do you guys think?

I guess that depends what your opinion of Kirk as a person is. I have seen nothing that leads me to believe he is "all about the money" and would go to the lengths to holdout because he believed that his recent extension is not paying him enough. Is he about the money somewhat? Yes, obviously. I think if we paid him fair market rate he would be happy over the lifetime of the contract. Besides, for a guy who preaches leadership and accountability, it would really look bad if he was complaining about unfair payment only a couple years after signing an extension. I think Kirk has tried to carefully cultivate an image of himself as a team player, and that would go against that.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by WillH

Those look like different interviews from earlier, but I get your point. He has said that he would try to sign him long-term, and thinks they should have sooner.

He still didn't do it though, when he had the chance. There is a lot of criticism being thrown around about not signing him sooner, and in retrospect it's a no brainer, but it just wasn't at the time and our savior that we all had placed our faith in (in Scott we trust), was part of that evaluation. And, as Scott said he would in Oct. (Second article you posted), the FO did try to sign him long term last off-season, but Cousins declined to counter, despite an offer that his agent said was clearly a good starting point for negotiations.That at least makes me feel less shitty about missing the boat on him. It wasn't organizational ignorance or incompetence, it was a sound decision that turned out to be the wrong move.

The only question that I think remains in terms of the organization's role in this is why Cousins doesn't have a peace here. Is he just bitter that he wasn't offered more sooner? Is it his relationship with Gruden? Is he not patient with the team building? Is there other dysfunction that we haven't heard about that has turned him off? Is it just about maximizing his earnings?

I think clearly the organization has played a role in whatever way in Cousins not wanting to be here, but he plays a big role in that as well. Without knowing the details though it's impossible to make a judgement about who's most at fault.

I will say this though, at this point, to me, Cousins is beginning to look more at fault than he did a month or two ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on his comments Cousins' main complaints seem to be:

1. The Redskins told me they needed more time to evaluate me after one good season of starting before signing a big long-term deal.

2. My favorite coach left, and he always propped me up. I believed in him more than anyone else here.

3. I put up good numbers, the losses aren't all my fault, but the team is judging me off of my record.

4. I haven't had a chance to shop around and I think I deserve that.

After he let everyone know he wasn't being made to feel unwelcome, was offered a legitimate starting offer, and now knowing that Scott was part of the decision not to sign him earlier, it's just hard to blame the FO, and Cousins perspective comes off as self centered. I mean, he has every right to feel the way he does and he's been an consumate professional about it, but where's the buy in and trust on his end, and why does he not understand that as an NFL QB he will always be asked to prove it?

Brady to this day has not lost the drive to prove himself and he's bought in to the people that gave him a shot, and he has found a balance in his negotiations between winning and being well compensated by not expecting his team to be limited by paying him a ridiculous percentage of the cap despite all of his success.

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Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.

Originally Posted by WillH

1. The Redskins told me they needed more time to evaluate me after one good season of starting before signing a big long-term deal.
2. My favorite coach left, and he always propped me up. I believed in him more than anyone else here.
3. I put up good numbers, the losses aren't all my fault, but the team is judging me off of my record.
4. I haven't had a chance to shop around and I think I deserve that.

1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

[Meks]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.



1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

This would have more to do with the coach than the player in this situation.

[Whathappenedtorg3]

I think Mcloughan used a clever rhetorical trick in reframing the question from "can the Rs get a better starting QB on the street or in this super weak draft class?" to " Is Kirk Cousins special?"

There's what like 2 "special" QBs in the league?

Something about working for the Rs makes you unnecessarily political and douchey.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by Whathappenedtorg3

I think Mcloughan used a clever rhetorical trick in reframing the question from "can the Rs get a better starting QB on the street or in this super weak draft class?" to " Is Kirk Cousins special?"

There's what like 2 "special" QBs in the league?

Something about working for the Rs makes you unnecessarily political and douchey.

The R's eh? You'll have to be more specific, not sure who you're referring to there.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by mooby

The R's eh? You'll have to be more specific, not sure who you're referring to there.

Pretty clear that torg doesn't know where the word "redskins" comes from, why it was picked for the team name, and how the name is used today. LOL.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by Meks

This would have more to do with the coach than the player in this situation.

I don't know what you mean.

[WillH]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

Well, yeah different interviews earlier. But look at even the interview posted elsewhere, where McCloughan says that Kirk is "not special", and then goes on to say this about Kirk (Link embedded)


“He’s talented,” McCloughan said. “Talent is good at quarterback in the NFL. He’s won games. I know his record overall isn’t over .500. I know he hasn’t won a playoff game. But he’s competitive. He works his tail off. He’s so methodical. Every day he has planned out. He’s always in the building, he’s always watching tape, he’s always talking to coaches, he [was] talking to me. From the standpoint of the tangibles, they’re excellent. You just need to have some talent around him because you don’t want him to be throwing the ball 35-40 times to win the game. You want to have a running game, and have a good defense, good teams. And then let him do what he does.”

Two areas of Cousins’ game that don’t get talked about enough are his mobility and an ability to overcome adversity. McCloughan landed on both those points on Thursday.

“The thing about him that’s unique, and you don’t see it too often, he’s a pretty good athlete with his legs,” McCloughan said. “He can make plays moving around the pocket and running for first downs. He’s got a strong enough arm, there’s no doubt about it. He’s been through adversity. He got drafted the same year that Robert Griffin got drafted. And Robert was the guy and of course he deserved it. He was Offensive Rookie of the Year and Kirk just had to sit back and just wait and wait and wait.

“He wants to play. He’s highly, highly competitive. He comes across as a real nice guy, like Alex Smith did in interviews — and they are. But they’re both highly competitive and they want to win. But they want that stability too. They want to know they’re in some spot where it’s not just a one-year deal, one-year deal, one-year deal. He wants a long-term deal.”

It should be noted that it is somewhat bizarre that McCloughan would so vociferously complement Cousins, after saying that the signal-caller isn't special. Most of the verbiage the former GM used to complement Cousins paints the picture of a 'special' QB.

So according to McCloughan, not special, but talented and works his tail off. And with all the other compliments McC threw Kirks way, like the article author I'm wondering if Kirk isn't special, would you call him almost special or not-quite-special? Still a very good QB according to McC, IMO.

The first year his contract came up, the Skins made a business decision not committing to Kirk. In hindsight it was a bad decision in every way, morale wise and financially. Can you blame Kirk and his agent making business decisions since then that have worked out fantastically for Kirk? (and agent of course LOL). Forget any vitriol, you can look at this situation as the way that the Redskins front office wanted to play it, or just business as usual in the NFL where the two sides can't agree for whatever reason, or other ways without blaming Kirk. (I hope we agree that given Snyder and Allens history of bungling, they don't deserve the benefit of a doubt now.)

On your points, I feel like you are assigning hard feelings to Kirk that may not exist.



1. Yeah that's the business decision the Skins made. IMO they told Kirk "prove it", and he did. Haven't heard of any bitterness or hard feelings on Kirks part, have you?

2. Dunno about favorite, but has there been any friction between Gruden and Cousins, again I haven't heard of any.

3. TFB, Tom Freakin Brady, would only do so much on this team, well short of Superbowls, IMHO. I understand QBs are judged partly on team success, but I think Kirks resume outweighs this teams record by a long shot. Look how well he did here when we had Garcon and Jackson.

4. Perfectly justified and reasonable for a player to do so, especially after they have been tagged twice, regardless of their personal relationship to the team.

1. Yeah, I think I detected a little bitterness when he said something to the effect of, they said they needed time to evaluate the first year, now I need to evaluate.

2. He got a subtle dog in at Gruden that it was McVays offense and he needed to see how Gruden would do without him. He had to know how chippy Gruden got last off-season when the media was creating that story line.

3. I disagree. Tom Brady, dislike him as I do, is GOAT. You can argue against it, but the evidence is stacked against you. Also, really there's more evidence that Gruden is the more influential of the two to offensive success, he got a lot out of Dalton. Cousins hasn't had the chance to prove his numbers aren't a product of the system. I also think this year showed more about Gruden ability to scheme than Kirk playing above the talent level of the team, it's not like he made any of his receivers look like all stars this year.

4. Agreed. Totally, but as a Skins fan, it makes him look like a douche to me.

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[WillH]

Originally Posted by HailGreen28

I don't know what you mean.

I think he's saying what I just said too, namely, the Offense this year probably reflects better on Gruden than Cousins when you think about it. There have been a number of good WRs that have been made to look like straight ballers by an elite QB, This was not the case this year with Cousins. Your point would be more effective if say Ryan Grant looked like Garcon. Instead, it would seem, on the surface at least, that good game planning and scheming to get players open from every skill position had more to do with it than Cousins' skill.

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[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by WillH

I think he's saying what I just said too, namely, the Offense this year probably reflects better on Gruden than Cousins when you think about it. There have been a number of good WRs that have been made to look like straight ballers by an elite QB, This was not the case this year with Cousins. Your point would be more effective if say Ryan Grant looked like Garcon. Instead, it would seem, on the surface at least, that good game planning and scheming to get players open from every skill position had more to do with it than Cousins' skill.

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Good WR's, you say? That's where your argument falls apart. We didn't have any good WR's. Whatzizname from the Browns was one starting WR and he didn't do squat. He was a total bust who didn't have a single good game. He was on pace to break Rod "50/50" Gardner's team record for dropped passes until Jay Gruden crazy-glued his ass to the bench.

Doctson, the second year rookie who was the other starting WR, had a terrible season. He couldn't get separation, his route running was pathetically bad, and he dropped what would have been the winning TD pass against the Chiefs, among his other faults. Oh, I almost forgot to mention that he is as soft as Charmin and he was regularly bullied by corners.

Grant stepped up and did as well as he can, which is average. I don't mean to knock him because he played hard and contributed but he is a career backup type.

The guy from Duke had a poor year based on the standard he set for himself in previous seasons. He's really a slot receiver, anyway.

Nobody else got any run to speak of.

Not even Tom Brady could have elevated that group.

[Ivar the Boneless]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

Although I agree with Scot, Kirk is a good QB that needs the help of other really good players around him to win many games. The roster now, just isn't going to cut it

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The team is still way too deficient on both sides of the ball to be contenders, even with Kirk playing lights out on a consistent basis. The extra knock on him is that he isn't consistent. He needs a loaded team like Jacksonville and Oakland to really get to the postseason. Even when he was lighting it up with DJax and Garcon, the D and running game would let him down. Our WR corp shows only a tad of potential, and isn't that good. I would draft a WR in 2018 and 2019. At this point I wouldn't resign Doctson, unless he really shines next season. The sad thing is we really haven't advanced the roster all that much in the past 4 seasons.

[HailGreen28]

Originally Posted by WillH

1. Yeah, I think I detected a little bitterness when he said something to the effect of, they said they needed time to evaluate the first year, now I need to evaluate.

2. He got a subtle dog in at Gruden that it was McVays offense and he needed to see how Gruden would do without him. He had to know how chippy Gruden got last off-season when the media was creating that story line.

3. I disagree. Tom Brady, dislike him as I do, is GOAT. You can argue against it, but the evidence is stacked against you. Also, really there's more evidence that Gruden is the more influential of the two to offensive success, he got a lot out of Dalton. Cousins hasn't had the chance to prove his numbers aren't a product of the system. I also think this year showed more about Gruden ability to scheme than Kirk playing above the talent level of the team, it's not like he made any of his receivers look like all stars this year.

4. Agreed. Totally, but as a Skins fan, it makes him look like a douche to me.

I'd like to agree to disagree on 1, 2, and 4.

3. I'm not arguing TFB isn't the GOAT, I'm saying despite the QB being the most important position on the team, any QB can only do much. I admit you and Meks might be right about Gruden being the major factor, in this case given his success here and Cincy, since Cousins didn't do much the last 2 years of the Shanahans. We will see more next season when Gruden has a different QB here. But good point, Meks.

[WillH]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

Good WR's, you say? That's where your argument falls apart. We didn't have any good WR's. Whatzizname from the Browns was one starting WR and he didn't do squat. He was a total bust who didn't have a single good game. He was on pace to break Rod "50/50" Gardner's team record for dropped passes until Jay Gruden crazy-glued his ass to the bench.

Doctson, the second year rookie who was the other starting WR, had a terrible season. He couldn't get separation, his route running was pathetically bad, and he dropped what would have been the winning TD pass against the Chiefs, among his other faults. Oh, I almost forgot to mention that he is as soft as Charmin and he was regularly bullied by corners.

Grant stepped up and did as well as he can, which is average. I don't mean to knock him because he played hard and contributed but he is a career backup type.

The guy from Duke had a poor year based on the standard he set for himself in previous seasons. He's really a slot receiver, anyway.

Nobody else got any run to speak of.

Not even Tom Brady could have elevated that group.

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

Good WR's, you say? That's where your argument falls apart. We didn't have any good WR's. Whatzizname from the Browns was one starting WR and he didn't do squat. He was a total bust who didn't have a single good game. He was on pace to break Rod "50/50" Gardner's team record for dropped passes until Jay Gruden crazy-glued his ass to the bench.

Doctson, the second year rookie who was the other starting WR, had a terrible season. He couldn't get separation, his route running was pathetically bad, and he dropped what would have been the winning TD pass against the Chiefs, among his other faults. Oh, I almost forgot to mention that he is as soft as Charmin and he was regularly bullied by corners.

Grant stepped up and did as well as he can, which is average. I don't mean to knock him because he played hard and contributed but he is a career backup type.

The guy from Duke had a poor year based on the standard he set for himself in previous seasons. He's really a slot receiver, anyway.

Nobody else got any run to speak of.

Not even Tom Brady could have elevated that group.

Fair point, but I don't think he elevated them from crap to pedestrian even.

Again, I disagree about Brady (maybe not the fairest comparison), he gets good production from pedestrian WRs, it's what he does:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...icle-1.2964308

I still think more credit should go to Gruden in scheming his pedestrian players open, but Cousins did execute it and deserves credit for it. Also, Gruden is just as much 7-9 as Cousins. The difference is that he's not made public comments about it being unfair to judge him on it.

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