Brunell vs. Bledsoe

[Huddle]

Huddle - simple question and follow-up: Do you believe there are ANY criteria that provide a basis for objective comparison of two players playing the same position but for different teams? If so, what are they?

I'll assume you are talking about from a fan's perspective and not by the professionals.

Observation. Watching them play. But when we see the player infrequently, there's not much to go on.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Huddle - simple question and follow-up: Do you believe there are ANY criteria that provide a basis for objective comparison of two players playing the same position but for different teams? If so, what are they?

Originally Posted by Huddle

I'll assume you are talking about from a fan's perspective and not by the professionals.

Observation. Watching them play. But when we see the player infrequently, there's not much to go on.

Wow. I'll give you five options: (1) You're being intentionally obtuse b/c its fun to see our reactions; (2) You're twelve; (3) You forgot to take your meds; (5) english is your second language; or (4) You're an idiot.

In response to your response:

First - I asked for objective criteria. Go ahead and assume that I am talking about a fan's perspective. You do not provide an answer. For two people to compare the same players by watching the two players and then discussing their relative strenghts and weaknesses is BY DEFINITION a subjective comparison based only on the opinion of the observing individuals. Each individual may observe the same actions but perceive them differently.

Again I ask, w/out relying on mostly useless stats, please explain to me how two fans can have a discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of two players w/out it being simply an exchange of individual biases for or prejudices against the player.

Second - Okay, let's assume I am talking about comparisons "by the professionals": What means do they use to make objective comparisons? OR are you asserting that "the professionals" have NO objective criteria and rely solely on their subjective observations?

[Huddle]

Joe Redskin

Wow. I'll give you five options: (1) You're being intentionally obtuse b/c its fun to see our reactions; (2) You're twelve; (3) You forgot to take your meds; (5) english is your second language; or (4) You're an idiot.

If you can't make logical arguments, attack your opponent personally. Not a very original approach in this forum, but oh well.

First - I asked for objective criteria. Go ahead and assume that I am talking about a fan's perspective.

I missed the word "objective" on my first reading. No. I don't think there is any objective way for fans to compare two players.

Second - Okay, let's assume I am talking about comparisons "by the professionals": What means do they use to make objective comparisons? OR are you asserting that "the professionals" have NO objective criteria and rely solely on their subjective observations?

Oh, you devil. You want me to say that they probably use statistics! Yeah. They might. But I'd bet that they aren't the same useless batch of stats that we talk about in this forum.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Oh, you devil. You want me to say that they probably use statistics! Yeah. They might. But I'd bet that they aren't the same useless batch of stats that we talk about in this forum.

So they are magical stats, never revealed to the public? AND the existence of these secret stats is wiped out of the minds of those "professionals" who stop working in the league and become commentators? 'Cause I believe I have heard one or two former "professionals' use the same stats we discuss here. .

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Oh, you devil. You want me to say that they probably use statistics! Yeah. They might. But I'd bet that they aren't the same useless batch of stats that we talk about in this forum.

I'll take that bet, considering the same statistics we use on this forum are the same type and kind of statistics we used in our mock arbitration in my Sports and Entertainment Law class in law school, at the direction of my professor who is the former President of the NHL, and who brought in three prominant sports agents to discuss with us the process and procedures used in determining player salaries. But hey, what do I know? Those kinds of statistics must not be as important as all those guys said they were since Huddle doesn't think ..... no no no ....... since Huddle is willing to "bet" that they aren't.

I know I said I was done, but I consider this another topic..........oh heck, I'm just bad at keeping quiet if truth be told.

Don't worry Huddle, I don't expect you to actually respond to this post because I know it doesn't support your point.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Huddle

Oh, you devil. You want me to say that they probably use statistics! Yeah. They might. But I'd bet that they aren't the same useless batch of stats that we talk about in this forum.

they're the same ones. DVOA and theisman's are specialized created stats, but there's just as available as any other stat.

you have yet to show me an objective comparision of boller to peyton without using stats or opinions. I don't know what the problem is, but your claims are dead and instead of rebutting the actual obvious holes in those claims, you focus on asking people not to call you names instead. you've been avoiding my posts for hours now. good job. I can only assume this is only because you have no response and agree with them.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Excellent post JoeRedskin. Thank you.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Excellent post JoeRedskin. Thank you.

Apparently, I have not had my fill of inane academic argument.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Apparently, I have not had my fill of inane academic argument.

That's good. I still enjoy watching this all unfold.......I just can't handle arguing with someone who only comments on what he wants to comment on and refuses to answer the questions that prove him wrong. It's easier when you have someone on the stand and the judge can direct them to answer the question. It's the reason an argument like this wouldn't last two minutes in a courtroom. How his style of debate is more "logical" is simply beyond me. All he wants to do is keep saying the same things over and over again, avoid the landmines that everyone has laid for him, and play by his own set of rules. That might make for a fun little game to play with each of us, but it isn't a proper method of debate and it's a pretty piss-poor way of arguing.

[That Guy]

i made reference to circular arguements and brick walls about 100 pages ago and still we're circling

where's the rebuttal to my points? where's your proof that you're right? I still see you claiming others have no proof despite well reasoned and articulate discussion, but you're "proof" consists of unsupported opinions (and bad logic)... yet somehow anything you write is evidence and anything anyone else writes is opinions or not relevent.

meanwhile i'm still waiting.

[MTK]

I think this thread is on roids

[JoeRedskin]

Ahh, but you're still reading it!!

[That Guy]

he's been reduced to trying to pick apart pieces of posts (not even entire posts), cause he knows he can't actually make any sort of point with having it ripped to shreds...

And the "that's just an opinion" crap doesn't fly when it magically doesn't apply to one person's posts (huddle) and does apply to everyone else's.

stats aren't mostly worthless (since clubs invest heavily on players at least in part because of stats, and because bad players rarely (if ever) put up good stats), and it's completely possible to filter out extraneous variables (by either watching guys play while using common sense, listening to "experts", or by using the entire fields of academia that are devoted to doing just that).

are we done here? can we move on now?

[That Guy]

huddle has read my last 5 posts now and has decided to completely avoid answering or rebutting any of them. I wonder why :P...

huddle, please objectively compare peyton manning to kyle boller for me without using stats and in a way that cannot be rebutted with "that's just an opinion". Once you do that, we can talk.

[MTK]

This thread is dangerously close to being locked, let's either get it back on track (not even sure if that's possible) or let it die.

thanks