Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots?

SmootSmack · 12-13-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So let me ask you this. If Joe Gibbs was coaching the Pats, do you think they would be running the type of offense they do? HELL NO. Gibbs would be saying, "we need balance." Although BB does not call the plays, he lets Brady spread it out and throw it all over the field. How many coaches would let Brady do that? Not too many cause they don't have the balls that BB does.

Last week NE got the ball on their own 1 yard line, got in shotgun and passed the ball every single play for a 99 yard drive. Sorry but Gibbs or alot of other coaches would come out in a 4 TE set and try and run the ball to give the punter more room and play field position. Gibbs wouldn't even think about getting 7 points backed up in his own territory. BB allows Brady to play with such an aggressive offensive attack and he has to get credit for that cause alot other coaches would never play with that style.

Here's something kind of interesting about the Patriots. The Patriots have run for 105 first downs, second-most in the league behind Minnesota (108), and are tied with Miami with 28.8 first downs per carry. Oh, and Tom Brady has nine first-down runs on third down out of 10 tries, a league-best 90-percent success rate. (courtesy: Cold Hard Football Facts)

skinsfan69 · 12-13-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Here's something kind of interesting about the Patriots. The Patriots have run for 105 first downs, second-most in the league behind Minnesota (108), and are tied with Miami with 28.8 first downs per carry. Oh, and Tom Brady has nine first-down runs on third down out of 10 tries, a league-best 90-percent success rate. (courtesy: Cold Hard Football Facts)

Would you classify NE as a passing team, or a running team?

SmootSmack · 12-13-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Would you classify NE as a passing team, or a running team?

Pass first, I'd say. I'd say that if they needed to run I don't know if they could get it done. Their passing game frees up their running game more so than it does for other teams

12thMan · 12-13-2007, 01:19 PM

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

firstdown · 12-13-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

If I'm correct he has another SB ring as a DC. I love how people credit everyone around BB but he gets little credit.

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

I agree. I do think Belichick is a great coach. I'm just not so sure he is a great person, and that is where the hate for the Pats is derived, IMO.

I credit Belichick for making the Pats great, but I don't give him credit for making Brady great. I'll credit him for finding him, and drafting him (although I'm not sure if he deserves more credit than the Pats FO).

If great QBs are made great by coaching, and not born that way, you'd have a lot more stories like Brady's. Granted there are other Cinderella stories, but not many.

12thMan · 12-13-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I agree. I do think Belichick is a great coach. I'm just not so sure he is a great person, and that is where the hate for the Pats is derived, IMO.

I credit Belichick for making the Pats great, but I don't give him credit for making Brady great. I'll credit him for finding him, and drafting him (although I'm not sure if he deserves more credit than the Pats FO).

If great QBs are made great by coaching, and not born that way, you'd have a lot more stories like Brady's. Granted there are other Cinderella stories, but not many.

Well, I do think you have to give Belichick some credit for developing Brady into a great quarterback. I don't think that is beyond reasonble. Many here, not you Ghetto, would like to believe the draft gods somehow smiled on Belichick and...poof...Brady appeared with all this Hall of Fame potential.

Make no mistake, Bill Belichick has taught Tom Brady a great deal about the game; how to recognize defenses, football mechanics and such. Some may defer to Weis on this, I beg to differ. Brady didn't possess this at Michigan, at least not on a professional level. As far as raw skill, competitive fire, leadership and other intangibles, those are all Tom Brady's.

I also believe that Bill Belichick has fostered and created an environment in New England for all of those raw skills to flourish and cause Tom Brady to play at a very high level. If nothing else, the fact the Brady was drafted in the sixth round and not the first, could be the best thing that happened to him career wise. He was allowed to fly under the radar, unlike most first round picks, and actually focus on football and getting better instead of answering dumb ass questions week to week whether he's happy being a back-up. These things go a very long way in impacting a quarterback's developement. It's not all X's and O's.

As much as I wanted to see Jason Campbell start the week Mark Brunell broke the completion record, the time he spent on the bench will serve him well in the future.

BleedBurgundy · 12-13-2007, 01:23 PM

I think you could make the argument that the single most valuable person to the Patriots' dynasty is Scott Pioli. He has done an amazing job acquiring talent, both drafted and free agent. Their personnel department is the benchmark in the NFL.

Mc2guy · 12-13-2007, 01:55 PM

I really admire the Patriots as a football team on the field, just as I admire ExxonMobil or Walmart in business. They are effective, produce results, and are ruthless wth their competition. They do everything they can to achieve a competitive advantage and exploit every possible weakness of their opponent. These traits are admirable in many ways.

However, just as I can't stand ExxonMobil or Walmart, I can't stand the Patriots. Despite their performance, playing the part of the big bully in the room rarely endears you to anyone, and the arrogance, smugness, and general spitefullness for anyone who dares criticize them, not to mentior the rules of the game is a real turn-off.

Since football is entertainment, we expect more from the teams that ruthless efficiency on the field. We expect players to abide by the rules of society (Vick), we expect courtesy and openness to the media (again, this is entertainment we are talking about here), and most of all we expect gratitude for the tremendous gift that WE THE FANS, have bestowed on these players and coaches to be able to play a game for asinine amounts of money. Gratitude manifests itself in the form of courtesy, humility, and access. If these expectations are not met, then many paying customers (myself included) don't appreciate it and hence, the backlash against the Patriots.

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 02:34 PM

@skinsfan69: The Pats offense this year is the most aggressive offense I have ever seen. Granted I'm only 25, but I think it's safe to say that it's one of the most aggressive offenses of all time. Belichick and the other Pats coaches deserve all the credit for that. However, I think having a QB like Brady allows you to do that. Everyone wants Gibbs to do the same thing with Campbell, but it's not realistic -- at least not to the same degree as the Pats.

@12thMan: Yes, Belichick deserves a lot of credit for helping Brady mature, and teaching him about the game. I just don't think he is what makes Brady great. Like you said: they make each other great.

Does anybody believe Belichick could take another 6th round QB and turn him into Brady? There's just no way.

Defensewins · 12-14-2007, 10:38 AM

I do not like or hate Bellicheck all that much, but you do have to give HIM credit for one thing: there has been LARGE amount of turnover of players and assistant coaches on the SB Pats teams, but yet they remained a good team and actually improved. The only remaining starters form the Pats first SB win is Brady, Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel. That is it just 3 players out of 22. Everyone else is gone, like off the team.
The 4 time SB champ Steelers did not have the roster changes that SB champs Pats have had. Hall of famers Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Franco Harris, Rocky Blier, C Mike Webster on offense; Joe Green, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham and Mel Bloundt to name just a few were on all four SB teams.
They did not rebuild the team like the Pats have done.
That takes a great FO but most importantly it takes a great coach and system.
Sorry Bellicheck haters, but he is a good coach and history will show it that way. This current team is fairly young and will keep winning.

celts32 · 12-14-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I do not like or hate Bellicheck all that much, but you do have to give HIM credit for one thing: there has been LARGE amount of turnover of players and assistant coaches on the SB Pats teams, but yet they remained a good team and actually improved. The only remaining starters form the Pats first SB win is Brady, Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel. That is it just 3 players out of 22. Everyone else is gone, like off the team.
The 4 time SB champ Steelers did not have the roster changes that SB champs Pats have had. Hall of famers Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Franco Harris, Rocky Blier, C Mike Webster on offense; Joe Green, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham and Mel Bloundt to name just a few were on all four SB teams.
They did not rebuild the team like the Pats have done.
That takes a great FO but most importantly it takes a great coach and system.
Sorry Bellicheck haters, but he is a good coach and history will show it that way. This current team is fairly young and will keep winning.

I agree with you that he's a good coach...maybe even very good...I disagree with those who now view him as the greatest coach of all time and some imortal NFL legend.

firstdown · 12-14-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celts32

I agree with you that he's a good coach...maybe even very good...I disagree with those who now view him as the greatest coach of all time and some imortal NFL legend.

I don't think anyone (maybe Pat fans) think BB is the greatest coach of all times but I have to say he is one of the best if not the best of current coaches.

celts32 · 12-14-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

I don't think anyone (maybe Pat fans) think BB is the greatest coach of all times but I have to say he is one of the best if not the best of current coaches.

I agree he's one of the best current...but listen to the way the media talks about him now. I have heard all time great and best ever thrown around with him by many media heads.

12thMan · 12-14-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celts32

I agree he's one of the best current...but listen to the way the media talks about him now. I have heard all time great and best ever thrown around with him by many media heads.

Celts, you never answered a question I had for you.

How do you measure the all-time great coaches?

12-13-2007, 01:19 PM	#4
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,460	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner. I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins. The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

12-13-2007, 01:23 PM	#8
BleedBurgundy Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,471	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I think you could make the argument that the single most valuable person to the Patriots' dynasty is Scott Pioli. He has done an amazing job acquiring talent, both drafted and free agent. Their personnel department is the benchmark in the NFL. __________________ "All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine

12-13-2007, 01:55 PM	#9
Mc2guy Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Burke, VA Age: 49 Posts: 287	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I really admire the Patriots as a football team on the field, just as I admire ExxonMobil or Walmart in business. They are effective, produce results, and are ruthless wth their competition. They do everything they can to achieve a competitive advantage and exploit every possible weakness of their opponent. These traits are admirable in many ways. However, just as I can't stand ExxonMobil or Walmart, I can't stand the Patriots. Despite their performance, playing the part of the big bully in the room rarely endears you to anyone, and the arrogance, smugness, and general spitefullness for anyone who dares criticize them, not to mentior the rules of the game is a real turn-off. Since football is entertainment, we expect more from the teams that ruthless efficiency on the field. We expect players to abide by the rules of society (Vick), we expect courtesy and openness to the media (again, this is entertainment we are talking about here), and most of all we expect gratitude for the tremendous gift that WE THE FANS, have bestowed on these players and coaches to be able to play a game for asinine amounts of money. Gratitude manifests itself in the form of courtesy, humility, and access. If these expectations are not met, then many paying customers (myself included) don't appreciate it and hence, the backlash against the Patriots.

12-13-2007, 02:34 PM	#10
GhettoDogAllStars Playmaker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Age: 44 Posts: 2,762	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? @skinsfan69: The Pats offense this year is the most aggressive offense I have ever seen. Granted I'm only 25, but I think it's safe to say that it's one of the most aggressive offenses of all time. Belichick and the other Pats coaches deserve all the credit for that. However, I think having a QB like Brady allows you to do that. Everyone wants Gibbs to do the same thing with Campbell, but it's not realistic -- at least not to the same degree as the Pats. @12thMan: Yes, Belichick deserves a lot of credit for helping Brady mature, and teaching him about the game. I just don't think he is what makes Brady great. Like you said: they make each other great. Does anybody believe Belichick could take another 6th round QB and turn him into Brady? There's just no way. __________________ To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered.

12-14-2007, 10:38 AM	#11
Defensewins Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 3,767	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I do not like or hate Bellicheck all that much, but you do have to give HIM credit for one thing: there has been LARGE amount of turnover of players and assistant coaches on the SB Pats teams, but yet they remained a good team and actually improved. The only remaining starters form the Pats first SB win is Brady, Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel. That is it just 3 players out of 22. Everyone else is gone, like off the team. The 4 time SB champ Steelers did not have the roster changes that SB champs Pats have had. Hall of famers Bradshaw, Swann, Stallworth, Franco Harris, Rocky Blier, C Mike Webster on offense; Joe Green, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham and Mel Bloundt to name just a few were on all four SB teams. They did not rebuild the team like the Pats have done. That takes a great FO but most importantly it takes a great coach and system. Sorry Bellicheck haters, but he is a good coach and history will show it that way. This current team is fairly young and will keep winning.

Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots?

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