D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

[A10sROCK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience. We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program. That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by A10sROCK

Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience. We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program. That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.

But did management really have interest in "building a new program" in the first place? I mean they kept the defense, kept the same rushing attack, kept nearly all the starters, traded picks for an aging Jason Taylor...

It seems to me they were just trying to build off what Joe Gibbs had already built. If the coach is incapable of carrying Gibbs' leadership torch, then I think their intention is (and should be) to get someone who can.

[A10sROCK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But did management really have interest in "building a new program" in the first place? I mean they kept the defense, kept the same rushing attack, kept nearly all the starters, traded picks for an aging Jason Taylor...

It seems to me they were just trying to build off what Joe Gibbs had already built. If the coach is incapable of carrying Gibbs' leadership torch, then I think their intention is (and should be) to get someone who can.

Gibbs II had a losing record. They brought Zorn in [first] because he was going to develop Jason Campbell to the maximum level.

Then they liked his ideas, drive and personality for the top job. If you give up on a guy after only a year - what coach will come here? Snyder would forever gain the Oakland-type management stink.

Snyder will stay with Zorn to show his perseverance. He was going to keep Gibbs and Spurrier - why would he suddenly change with Zorn?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.

I can buy that. I mean it may be that he's just not cut out to be more than an Xs and Os coordinator. We shall see

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

If we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark for the start of our current consistent level of play, then we have beaten ALL of the teams we are supposed to beat since then. I still think St. Louis was a fluky game (I'm guessing we won't lose on a Guard fumble ever again).

People (and apparently, some players too) are getting driven up the wall because we don't have a quality victory since week 5. We are 0-4 against quality opponents in that time span. Which is disappointing yes, but does it really speak to a deeper problem in which I would expect the team to come out and underachieve against Cincinnati? I don't believe it does.

I think Zorn does have to keep the team playing hard here to keep his job, but he's kept them competitive to this point, I can't really fathom a result that causes Snyder to fire him.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark for the start of our current consistent level of play, then we have beaten ALL of the teams we are supposed to beat since then. I still think St. Louis was a fluky game (I'm guessing we won't lose on a Guard fumble ever again).

What a strange premise off which to build a logical argument. Why in the world would we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark? Given that we kept the same running game, defense, starting lineup, and assistant coaching staff, shouldn't last year's performance (9-7) be the benchmark?

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

People (and apparently, some players too) are getting driven up the wall because we don't have a quality victory since week 5. We are 0-4 against quality opponents in that time span. Which is disappointing yes, but does it really speak to a deeper problem in which I would expect the team to come out and underachieve against Cincinnati? I don't believe it does.

I don't believe so either. Beating Cincinnatti is expected. But if you lose this one, coach Zorn, the chatter will get much louder.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think Zorn does have to keep the team playing hard here to keep his job, but he's kept them competitive to this point, I can't really fathom a result that causes Snyder to fire him.

I think he'd at least consider it if they go 7-9. But it's not worth worrying about until we see what happens over the final three games.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

I agree with you 100%. If the guy can't lead men then he must go. But all this losing the locker room stuff could be a bunch of BS. Who really knows? We're not inside Redskins Park. He's probably lost Portis and CP is Snyder's guy.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

Finishing 7-9 after a 6-2 start is definitely the kind of stuff that gets guys fired all the time in this league. And the bigger issue like you mention is if he's lost the confidence of the players, forget about it. Snyder will be on the horn with Cowher in no time.

[skinsnut]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

Man,
When I start reading assessments like this by our moderator prior to the cincy game, it doesn't bode well for Zorn...Mods tend to be kool-aid drinkers...(don't kill me for saying it)...I've seen a few on this good thread that are concerned...schneed makes a good point.
We would have been better off cutting Spurrier after 1 year since it took several years to recover from his crap.....AND it took a hall of fame coach to do it....unfortunately, none of those are available...I sure hope the next 2 games show incredible creativity and fire from the team, 2 things that are sorely needed from Zorn right now

[vallin21]

I honestly think Zorn is gone. When you make Portis mad the FO gets pissed. He then lost 4 pretty winnable games. You never know about Synder and his decision making and thats what should scare me if I'm Zorn.

[CRedskinsRule]

I don't think it is Snyder who needs to show he has patience, I think we as fans need to show we can disregard blatant fear/hate mongering and (probably) baseless rumors.
Zorn, or any 1st year coach that does not go 1-15, deserves a chance to re-group, and learn. Every great coach has had growing pains.

[724Skinsfan]

The tone of this thread seems to assume that we're going to lose to Cincinnati. Naturally, I don't suppose 99% of the people on this board really believe we will lose but close to the same wouldn't be all that surprised if we do drop the game. Aside from St. Louis, haven't we beat the teams we were supposed to beat? Haven't we lost to teams that were supposed to beat us? We're not playing good offensively. What a shocker! A first time play-caller and HC, who just so happen to inhabit the same body, needs time. I will say this, Zorn must evaluate his ability to adapt the way he wants to play with the hand that is dealt to him. The whole square peg/round hole crap applies here.

I agree that Zorn needs to show he can lead this team when the going gets tough but, in reality he hasn't failed that test yet.

[bedlamVR]

What a difference a month makes . I am glad I am no longer on Extremeskins site . Last week all the chatter was about changing QB... dumb...now we want to throw the HC out...I dispair ..

The one thing I don't like about this media age is opinion, rumor and innuendo become fact . The run on Campbell last week I think was started by a rumor on the ES board there was no fact to it . Now Snider is giving his opinion as fact and I hate to think what is happening .

The problem is the media and the fans are fickle and inconsistent with very short memories.

They say "We NEED to build through the draft" then shout and scream when the draft picks do not become instant stars .... you want an instant star you go out and buy one in free agency .

They say "We NEED stability" then shout and cry and demand change at the first sign of adversity ... We have lost 4 of the last 5 games but in that 4 game streak we played the Steelers, Giants, Ravens and Cowboys ... the game I am most upset about is the Boys game who simply sat on the short routes and we should have used more draws and longer passes to counter that but with a gimpy Moss our deap game was done for.

Taking the boys out of that the combined record of those other three is 30-9 . That is a rough patch for any team to endure . if you include the boys 38-14.

There are a lot of good things going on with the team, flashes from the rookies like when Thomas made the sideline catch and then just shed the DB who tried to make the tackle ... Portis pouting is not one of them but I think Portis is a speak first think later kind of guy .... think Mike Vick and dog fighting ... I think it is interesting one thing that isn't being talked about is Zorn trying to fix fences ...

The problem is if your team goes 6-2 and is in the nations capital it is going to get attention ..