Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?

[doughtydoubter]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Its funny reading all the speculation of who we will pick or if we trade etc. Its exciting and fun. But one thing I have noticed is:

Where has all that JC love gone??? and now hearing the arguement of general importance of the QB position...and yet we fo sho have the worst O line in the NFL...

Im just finally happy we have great people making these personel decisions.

I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

A pretty good player at the quarterback position though should grab more in a trade than a pretty good player at the defensive tackle position, for example.

I would propose that Campbell has had three better seasons than Anderson's best, but I'm probably overrating Campbell's 2007 in doing that (he had some talent around him that year, probably comparable to what Anderson had). Anderson more or less has three good games in his career, and those haven't weathered the test of time.

I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup. I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by celts32

I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup. I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.

But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I am not sure which game(s) you were watching. I dont recall Jason having 4-7 seconds to get rid of the ball. No one generally has that long to get rid of the ball. So lets be realistic. Jason was one of the most beat up QB's in the NFL. I dont think anyone argues that nor the fact the Oline was god awful. However, he did finish upper half of the league when the season ended, so if you look at it that way then he could be a far more productive QB if given the average amount of time in the pocket.

Now, for drafting a QB with the #4 pick. I just dont think is maximizing the pick. Especially if we are giving Campbell every opportunity to keep his job. What if Jason goes and lights it up (if the line is better) and we get into the playoffs. What now! You have Campbell who did what everyone expected behind a good Oline and now a #4 pick sitting on the bench. Wasted pick. Now, since we will probably offer JC a 1 year tender, now since he is a FA, we get nothing in return because we are not going to invest big money in him, we aren't going to tag him, and now no way to trade him. This of course is saying he has a good year.

2nd - say we draft a QB, and ignore what we should be doing by drafting the best olineman in the draft, he gets the job and now he is getting the crap beat out of him behind the oline. That is no way for a rookie QB to start a career and become productive.

We draft oline at 4 and in the 2nd. See whats available in the later rounds. Take whats there...RB, CB, LB, whatever. We are going to sign a couple of players in FA anyway.

About trading some of the players.. just dont see it. Who is going to trade for Moss, Portis, Randel El, JC??? NO ONE... 1st off Moss and Randel El can't get open if I am covering them. Portis is a 30 year old RB that no one is going to want. LT just got cut and Portis aint no LT. No one is going to offer a 1st and 3rd for JC, and no one is going to trade for him next year because he will be a FA. So we basically waste another 1st round pick and a 3rd to move up to get him.

I just hope this FO has a clue this offseason. I stand behind what ever they do, QB or no QB.

Good points some what valid but no different then our political system with the Dems and Repubs, your at the other end of the spectrum.

1) Almost every game I watched he had 4-7 seconds. I can remember around the 8th week close to the break the announcers even mentioned the time JC was being given after the snap and also said they didn't see that he had any less time vs. other QB's. Basically they were giving props to the make shift OL. The big question is ... was he seeing the whole field in reference to open receivers? and were the receivers getting open quick enough? Again it goes back to we never had a legit #1 WR. Plus JC only trusted is fail safes...ie; Moss, ARE, and Cooley.

2) If our intention was to simply draft a QB and screw the pooch on the OL then yes your 100% correct. The poor QB will get all beat up and will not be worth anything. Like Smootsmack said those of you who are against taking a QB with the 4th pick sound like Shanahan is going to have amnesia in regards to the OL and not do anything to shore it up. Do you guys think Shanahan is going to completely ignore the OL? Cerrato would have and did. Everyone felt Buges was god when it came to OL. I loved him to death but after last year I'm glad he's retired. Whether you blame it on the quality of OL or partially the scheme, I'm blaming both. Shanahan knows the OL is an issue. He's not going to come in here and not do something about it especially when he's known for having the best OL in the NFL year in and year out.

3) you mention the team or fans giving JC the opportunity to keep his job. Honestly I think he lost it either 1 or 2 yrs ago. I think DS has moved on and Cerrato did last summer. I'm hedging my bet and saying Zorn also but what HC is going to come out and say the QB sucks and then get stuck with the QB cause a trade was not possible? Zorn had to come out smelling like roses with JC. So he takes JC's side in front of the media but tells DS and Cerrato he needs a better QB. The Skins would be an idiot if they didn't tender JC. Why? simply cause he's a good QB but he's not great. If they plan to get rid of old Collins then name one half young Vet out there that is better then JC? and available. Why take a QB? cause Collins is old and need to go, Brennan has yet to step up due to injuries, So all we have is JC and Brennan. JC is 28 yrs old. I'm not saying he's old but ... he's not young either. QB's playing like Favre until they are 40 is usually not heard of. Most play until 30 or mid 30's. "IF" JC has an awsome year next year then give him the contract he deserves and the Rookie will just have to sit on the bench and wait his turn. We had money tied up in Brunell and paid JC well also so thats not an issue. If JC works out great we have his back up and someone to take over if he gets hurt or retires.

You all act like we should just wait, draft all OL this year, and pick up a Rookie QB next year and throw him to the fire then when you don't want to do it now. I'd rather have drafted a Rookie now and "IF" he's better then JC then start him if not let him get a year under his belt and start him next year already knowing the system and play calls vs. drafting next year with the hope we get a decent QB and can coach him up prior to the season.

4) You talk about the trades.... your right maybe no one wants our players or maybe someone will. We don't know unless we shop them. I'm betting there are teams out there that these guys would be upgrades to what those teams already have. and I'll say it again... Moss and ARE were used in the wrong spots, but when you have lemons you make lemon ade. ARE I felt had his best year last year because he was moved to a position that better suits him. We needed a valid #1 WR to take pressure off Moss and move him to the #2 spot where he would definitly have done better. ARE to the #3 spot helped out last year.

and lastly your right no one would want Portis. I don't even want Portis. I have issues with him... has he been cleared to play yet? will he be allowed to play or forced to retire?, he's old as well as Betts and Rock, his work ethic, then there is his big contract. Who knows what will happen after this year but all we know is if players are to be cut with out being penilized then this is the year prior to any new cap is put into place. This also goes for Samuels and any others.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by doughtydoubter

I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.

You might be right. To me it seems easier and happens more often that you can pick up an OL any where in the draft and with good coaching and scheme they will do fine starting. QB's are a different issue. I know people will throw up the stats again in regards to all the big starters and when they were drafted but to me those are diamonds in the rough and the team got lucky. I just don't see the Skins being able to pick up someone like that mid to late in the draft. JC has done well but he's not great. Brennan has been injured too much but a lot of you feel he's just camp fodder getting lucky. Daniels last year, I liked him and bet he turns out pretty good with the Saints. But none are Franchise QB's. Remember Ramsey? LOL.

I just feel if a Franchise QB is needed (which we don't have) and you have a high draft pick and the pickings are slim then QB is a no brainer. Then I'm throwing in the fact that in almost everytime a team picks a new HC a QB is drafted who the HC thinks will be able to work his system. So I'm not just saying it cause I want it I'm saying it cause it almost always happens so expect Shanahan to do it. If he doesn't then I'm fine with it. But I'll say next year we won't have as high of a pick so don't expect to get one of the top tier QB's next year either. Expect more of the extremely coached up variety of QB. Then there's what do we do if we don't draft a QB this year and next year JC say goodbye? who takes over? a Rookie?

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by celts32

I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup. I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.

I agree with you except I think your pushing the game manager stuff a bit either that or I'm getting game manager and clock manager combined. I don't think he's a good clock manager.

[NYCskinfan82]

Let's say we draft Bradford. Preseason he's out their with the 2nd or 3rd string OL some eager young DF player hit's him after the fact he's out for the season. I know that could happen to any player but he has a history now i just think 4th is to high for a QB with a little history like that (i think Bradford is a better QB than Clausen & i'm a ND fan). This is why i'm beating that drum that says trade back if possible for more picks. If we picked up more picks then i would say yes.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Lotus

But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.

I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Lotus

But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.

BINGO!

In most cases starters are worth a 1st round pick unless they are old or a problem ie; R.Moss, T.O. and so on. JC has another good 6-7 yrs left on him. I'd take a very low #1 draft pick or a 2nd rounder for him. But if there are no bites and someone offers a 3rd and a 5th what do you do? No bites and two picks for him... I'd have to see what Vet I had in mind to replace him with before excepting the offer.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by celts32

I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.

JC is going into this season as the starter and I'm sure in Shanny's eyes it would be his job to lose (even if we draft Bradford). If by halfway into the season, JC is the same guy as previous years, then Shanahan would pull him and insert the rook QB. If Campbell does well, then the rook QB sits.

I don't understand why people are so afraid of there being a "distraction" with Campbell here. All the drama last year was caused by Snyder and Cerrato, and their incompetence in trying to build a team by putting a "better" QB behind the POS line we had. Things are different now with Allen and Shanny in charge, and Campbell knows this would be his last shot at either staying on the team, or audition for the rest of the league.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by celts32

I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.

and this is my dilema. Tender him and tell him the spot is open to the best QB. Hopefully JC steps up and shines and we are all supprised and the team gives him a contract next year. If he can't beat out the Rookie or is relegated to back up he definitly won't be happy or want to stay after next year which means he leaves but it buys us a year with a decent Vet in JC and time to find someone else to fill his shoes when he leaves.

If we don't pick up a QB then the team is still not happy with his performance and then all we have is Brennan and some mid to late round draft pick from this year and pray a decent one falls to us next year when we are farther down the draft in round 1 or pick up a QB in FA. I'd rather have someone learning this year if he's not better and ready to take over next year if JC is not in the plans. If JC is then we have two awsome QB's.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by doughtydoubter

I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.

I think its finally an ideal time to address 4 out of 5 starting positions along the Oline. If we trade away JC and then put Bradford back there with that shoulder, that would be a huge mistake. If Shanny and Allen feel like he will be a franchise QB who can lead this team to the playoffs in several years by all means then take him. Clausen IMO is not a top ten pick, really hope we would trade back to take him. BUT if there any issue about Bradford not being that player or that shoulder is going to be a constant issue, we need to be Oline focused.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I agree with you except I think your pushing the game manager stuff a bit either that or I'm getting game manager and clock manager combined. I don't think he's a good clock manager.

No I didn't mean clock manager at all. I just mean he's a decent player. He is not taking a team anywhere that it could not have gone without him basically. A lot of QB's in the NFL lose games on their own...he's not in that group either. He's just okay...and I for one am tired of "okay" when it comes to the QB of the Redskins. I want the Redskins to find a Franchise QB that can be the reason they win games. I look forward to one day loading this website and not finding any threads talking about what we are going to do at the QB position.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

JC is going into this season as the starter and I'm sure in Shanny's eyes it would be his job to lose (even if we draft Bradford). If by halfway into the season, JC is the same guy as previous years, then Shanahan would pull him and insert the rook QB. If Campbell does well, then the rook QB sits.

I don't understand why people are so afraid of there being a "distraction" with Campbell here. All the drama last year was caused by Snyder and Cerrato, and their incompetence in trying to build a team by putting a "better" QB behind the POS line we had. Things are different now with Allen and Shanny in charge, and Campbell knows this would be his last shot at either staying on the team, or audition for the rest of the league.

I am fine with JC going into the season as the starter if that's what Shanni wants...I am also fine with taking the 3rd round pick for him now if that's what they want to do. I don't think JC is a distraction at all if he comes back and is the starting QB to start out the year. I think it's only a potential distraction if they attempt to bring him back as purely the backup. If he is the starter and loses the job through performance then i don't see him as the type of guy to cause any problems in that scenario.

[MTK]

The shoulder thing with Bradford is getting a bit tired. If he's given a clean bill of health it's a moot point. Like SS said, if teams didn't draft players with injury histories there would be no draft. At this point in their lives I don't think there's a player out there without a history of injuries.