Make your Case for non-HOFer

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinster

so if I'm a WR who plays for 20 seasons and gets 800 yards every year, I deserve to be in the HOF?

I know that is how the hall works. I just don't think that makes a player great. Thats why I call it the Hall of the very good.

The backlog is there because very good players keep getting inducted, and very good players are on the backlog.

What da ****??

You have any idea how hard it is to even make the NFL?

[mooby]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What da ****??

You have any idea how hard it is to even make the NFL?

LOL.

#ThingsyouneverexpectSStosay.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

The Hall represents a pretty small % of players, 267 are in the Hall now. When you consider how many players have come and gone, not sure how you can say these guys were just very good.

Yea, what he said.

[skinster]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

The Hall represents a pretty small % of players, 267 are in the Hall now. When you consider how many players have come and gone, not sure how you can say these guys were just very good.

I guess the issue is the standards we are talking about. I could list an incredible amount of players that I feel weren't "great" that made it. Maybe in your mind they were. There are even some players that are an absolute joke that made it.

Floyd Little, Lynn Swann, Marcus Allen, John Stallworth, and Bob Hayes at a glance.

Floyd Little-Inducted 2010, Played 9 seasons. Averaged 702 yards a season at 3.9 yards per carry and 4.7 touchdowns per season.
This guy getting inducted 2 years ago isn't a backlog of great players. Its a backlog of good players somehow bumping out better players.

All the players that should be in, but aren't will inevitably get in. They will just have to wait their turn as the backlog pushes them back.

[skinster]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What da ****??

You have any idea how hard it is to even make the NFL?

I fully appreciate just how hard it is to make it onto a COLLEGE team. Making it in the NFL is no small feat. They are all great players relative to the world. But greatness IN the NFL isn't judged by how good a player is relative to the world; its how good he is relative to the rest of the NFL.

When I say a player is very good, not great; I am not trying to insinuate he is not incredible at football; every player in the NFL is incredible. I'm saying that greatness is being elite among all the amazing players in the NFL.

[Leader In Sports]

Wait, you are really saying that John Stallworth doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame? Marcus Allen does not belong in the Hall of Fame?


Shame on you.

:smashfrea

Not only does it take the stats, but you have to look at the body of work. If you don't comprehend that, then it is hard to discuss the topic with you.

So, a defensive player who played before they kept the stat for sacks, shouldn't ever be allowed in Canton because he doesn't have the numbers?

[skinster]

Sorry for the tripple post; but I'd like someone to respond to why my assertion that there will be roughly 72 NFL players playing today that will one day make the HOF. I did the math, and there was an average of 6 HOF inductees over the last 5 years, and everyone drafted in the 1980s or after had an average career of 14 seasons. When we do the math that means that there should be 84 HOF players taken today; but for conservancy's sake I shortened the average length of a HOF player to 12 to make it at roughly 72 HOF players playing today (rookies through 18 year vets).

Don't tell me that "there is a backlog preventing these players from getting in." Because one day the current players will be the backlog preventing future players from getting in.

Are you really telling me you think that there are 72 players playing today whose end of their careers will warrant the tag, "greatness?" I don't.

[skinster]

Originally Posted by Leader In Sports

Wait, you are really saying that John Stallworth doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame? Marcus Allen does not belong in the Hall of Fame?


Shame on you.

:smashfrea

Not only does it take the stats, but you have to look at the body of work. If you don't comprehend that, then it is hard to discuss the topic with you.

So, a defensive player who played before they kept the stat for sacks, shouldn't ever be allowed in Canton because he doesn't have the numbers?

The stats are the body of work for those two positions. Defensive end is different. For example, Howie Long does not have very good sack statistics. I never saw him play, but I've asked people who have and they told me that he completely took over games. I can accept that as a D-Lineman can impact the game without recording any statistics.
Both a WR and a D-Lineman can be double teamed and record no statistics. But a D-linemen can still make an impact through pushing the pocket in the direction he desires. A WR can either get open to make the catch, or not.

Statistics pretty much define the WR and the RB position. As their (significant, game changing) impact is limited to the ways in which they can advance the ball.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by skinster

Sorry for the tripple post; but I'd like someone to respond to why my assertion that there will be roughly 72 NFL players playing today that will one day make the HOF. I did the math, and there was an average of 6 HOF inductees over the last 5 years, and everyone drafted in the 1980s or after had an average career of 14 seasons. When we do the math that means that there should be 84 HOF players taken today; but for conservancy's sake I shortened the average length of a HOF player to 12 to make it at roughly 72 HOF players playing today (rookies through 18 year vets).

Don't tell me that "there is a backlog preventing these players from getting in." Because one day the current players will be the backlog preventing future players from getting in.

Are you really telling me you think that there are 72 players playing today whose end of their careers will warrant the tag, "greatness?" I don't.

Your math breaks down because HoFer's tend to have longer careers. The average career number that you are using is way off for ALL players. Therefore there would be far fewer than 72 current players inducted.

[skinster]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Your math breaks down because HoFer's tend to have longer careers. The average career number that you are using is way off for ALL players. Therefore there would be far fewer than 72 current players inducted.

The length of the average NFL players career is irrelevant as the HOF only inducts players with HOF careers.
I'm not saying that there are 72 players who are incredible right now, simply that there are 72 players playing right now whose career will end up in the HOF. Some might be rookies, some might be in their 14th year, but the math is pretty undeniable that ALOT of today's players will make the HOF.

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by skinster

The stats are the body of work for those two positions. Defensive end is different. For example, Howie Long does not have very good sack statistics. I never saw him play, but I've asked people who have and they told me that he completely took over games. I can accept that as a D-Lineman can impact the game without recording any statistics.
Both a WR and a D-Lineman can be double teamed and record no statistics. But a D-linemen can still make an impact through pushing the pocket in the direction he desires. A WR can either get open to make the catch, or not.

Statistics pretty much define the WR and the RB position. As their (significant, game changing) impact is limited to the ways in which they can advance the ball.

You cannot compare stats of a receiver from the 70's to the modern era guys. The game has completely evolved. You have to look at the player and how they effected the game and the opposition.

Based on your logic, Paul Krause should have been a first ballot HOFer since he still has the most ever interceptions Hall of Famers » PAUL KRAUSE

It took Paul 20 years to be inducted in Canton.

If you used your logic, Sam Huff would still be waiting to be inducted since he only went to 5 pro bowls.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinster

Sorry for the tripple post; but I'd like someone to respond to why my assertion that there will be roughly 72 NFL players playing today that will one day make the HOF. I did the math, and there was an average of 6 HOF inductees over the last 5 years, and everyone drafted in the 1980s or after had an average career of 14 seasons. When we do the math that means that there should be 84 HOF players taken today; but for conservancy's sake I shortened the average length of a HOF player to 12 to make it at roughly 72 HOF players playing today (rookies through 18 year vets).

Don't tell me that "there is a backlog preventing these players from getting in." Because one day the current players will be the backlog preventing future players from getting in.

Are you really telling me you think that there are 72 players playing today whose end of their careers will warrant the tag, "greatness?" I don't.

The logic behind your math seems to be a little fuzzy at best, but I'll play along, 72/1696 players in the league right now = 4%. You really don't think 4% of the league consists of great players?

[skinster]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

The logic behind your math seems to be a little fuzzy at best, but I'll play along, 72/1696 players in the league right now = 4%. You really don't think 4% of the league consists of great players?

Great is a relative term. Of course the best 4% of any profession is great at what they do. When I say greatness; I mean the type of greatness that deserves to have you to forever be enshrined as one of the best to EVER play the game. I think that's what the HOF should be for, and no I don't think that the top 4% warrants immortality in the hall.

[MTK]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. If 4% is too high of a figure for you then we're not even in the same ballpark. And again, only 267 players in the Hall out of god only knows how many guys that have come through the league??

[Leader In Sports]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. If 4% is too high of a figure for you then we're not even in the same ballpark. And again, only 267 players in the Hall out of god only knows how many guys that have come through the league??

I am not very good at math, but 4% of players make it to Canton? I would suggest the equation this way:

The number of players who have played in the NFL (in all it's forms) divided by the number of players enshrined in Canton. I doubt that would be 4% I doubt it would even be 1%.