The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Uh, no? A guy who has a 1st round pick at QB behind him on the depth chart will get replaced whenever the team feels the young gun is ready. Brunell had basically been keeping the seat warm for two years.

Gibbs knew that he'd be costing us some wins when he went to Campbell, but in a lost season, the decision was an easy one. Giving up merely your best chance to win for a much better chance to win in future seasons is a no brainer. Gibbs didn't just fall off the turnip truck, he had a plan with his QBs all along and he stuck to it.

3-6 w/ Brunell. 2-5 w/ JC. Is the difference really that big?

[MTK]

Plus we need to consider how valuable having Collins around really is. He's been in this offense for what, 7-8 years now? He's basically like having a player/coach out there. That's a great resource for Campbell not only in practice but in games to bounce things off of.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Plus we need to consider how valuable having Collins around really is. He's been in this offense for what, 7-8 years now? He's basically like having a player/coach out there. That's a great resource for Campbell not only in practice but in games to bounce things off of.

I made this point earlier in the thread, but I got a response that said "coaches coach and players play, Saunders should be teaching the QBs."

Which of course is utterly ridiculous.

Saunders doesn't have time to turn Campbell into the stud we need him to be, coordinate the other 10 players on the field, study film of defenses, call the plays and be the chief game-planner, AND be there for a Tim Rattay every step of the way. And Bill Lazor should be focusing on Campbell's fundamentals, his reads, teaching him to break down film, and staying late after practice working on mechanics, not a Tim Rattay's.

Vet QBs on the sidelines are very helpful. Coaches don't have time for every little thing, especially for the backup QBs. And unlike coaches, vet QBs understand what it's like to have to make the reads under pressure and react quickly. Coaches can instruct you all they want, but they can't relate as well as a veteran player to what it actually feels like to be out there.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I definately agree that Collins has value insofar as he knows Saunders' system inside and out, but I'd also like to see a #3 who is a developmental project or who can step up into the #2 role when Brunell is done. Collins is neither and so I wouldn't be opposed to getting Rattay.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I definately agree that Collins has value insofar as he knows Saunders' system inside and out, but I'd also like to see a #3 who is a developmental project or who can step up into the #2 role when Brunell is done. Collins is neither and so I wouldn't be opposed to getting Rattay.

What if it meant you had to cut Renaldo Wynn to make it work cap-wise?

Because that's what it probably means.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

What if it meant you had to cut Renaldo Wynn to make it work cap-wise?

Because that's what it probably means.

Then I'd be opposed to it. Honestly, Schneed, I think the only disagreement between the two of us is about Rattay's salary. I think Collins has value and I'd like to keep him. But, I'd also like to add a future #2 in anticipation of Brunell's retirement. I like Rattay and think he could be a good #2, but my support of signing Rattay is conditioned on us getting him at a reasonable cost.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Then I'd be opposed to it. Honestly, Schneed, I think the only disagreement between the two of us is about Rattay's salary. I think Collins has value and I'd like to keep him. But, I'd also like to add a future #2 in anticipation of Brunell's retirement. I like Rattay and think he could be a good #2, but my support of signing Rattay is conditioned on us getting him at a reasonable cost.

Yeah I agree you and I are closer on this issue. If Rattay comes at vet minimum, then I can see the logic in getting him here now. It still wouldn't be my preference, because I'd prefer Collins were still around 2 more years. But I could see the logic.

But I see no reason to believe Rattay would take vet minimum when Carr and Harrington are getting $3.0 million a year.

My main beef is with GTripp throughout this thread, who has essentially dismissed the value that a vet QB brings in the form of tutelage, failed to understand that coaches don't have unlimited time to tutor both Campbell and a guy like Rattay effectively, and pish-poshed the judgment of Al Saunders (Collins' coach for 5 years running or whatever it is) regarding Collins' effectiveness.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I made this point earlier in the thread, but I got a response that said "coaches coach and players play, Saunders should be teaching the QBs."

Which of course is utterly ridiculous.

Saunders doesn't have time to turn Campbell into the stud we need him to be, coordinate the other 10 players on the field, study film of defenses, call the plays and be the chief game-planner, AND be there for a Tim Rattay every step of the way. And Bill Lazor should be focusing on Campbell's fundamentals, his reads, teaching him to break down film, and staying late after practice working on mechanics, not a Tim Rattay's.

Vet QBs on the sidelines are very helpful. Coaches don't have time for every little thing, especially for the backup QBs. And unlike coaches, vet QBs understand what it's like to have to make the reads under pressure and react quickly. Coaches can instruct you all they want, but they can't relate as well as a veteran player to what it actually feels like to be out there.

I agree 110%.

Especially during games considering Saunders is up in the booth.

Having Collins around gives Campbell AND Saunders another pair of eyes.

[dmek25]

is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time. Collins at least knows the offense. Rattay sucks, plain and simple. cannot play in this league. hopefully Collins will never set foot on the field as a Washington redskin

[skinsfan_nn]

Originally Posted by dmek25

is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time. Collins at least knows the offense. Rattay sucks, plain and simple. cannot play in this league. hopefully Collins will never set foot on the field as a Washington redskin

Well put!

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by dmek25

is this what it has come to? almost 130 posts about 2 qbacks, that if you added together wouldn't equal 1 good quarterback. this has to be right up there with the most ridiculous threads of all time.

It's the offseason dude. And it's a long 18 days until the draft.

[irish]

I hope Campbell throws the ball better that he did at the Nats game Sat night. His buggywhip delivery produced a high & wide throw as the ceremonial opening pitch.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah I agree you and I are closer on this issue. If Rattay comes at vet minimum, then I can see the logic in getting him here now. It still wouldn't be my preference, because I'd prefer Collins were still around 2 more years. But I could see the logic.

But I see no reason to believe Rattay would take vet minimum when Carr and Harrington are getting $3.0 million a year.

My main beef is with GTripp throughout this thread, who has essentially dismissed the value that a vet QB brings in the form of tutelage, failed to understand that coaches don't have unlimited time to tutor both Campbell and a guy like Rattay effectively, and pish-poshed the judgment of Al Saunders (Collins' coach for 5 years running or whatever it is) regarding Collins' effectiveness.

Hey, maybe I am underestimating the amount of time Saunders' has to instruct his players. But Saunders can always hire more coaches if he needs to. I was under the impression that we had too many coaches already...and that if anything we need to get rid of some of the coaches.

But, hey, apparently we need to keep Todd Collins on board so we can whittle the coaching staff down and still have enough coaching to be going around.

C'mon, either we have too many coaches or not enough. If Collins' only role around here is going to be as an instructor, take his 1 million off the team salary cap and free up his roster spot and make him Lazor's assistant.

I think you are underestimating the competency of most NFL quarterbacks. I'm sure there's a handful of guys in the league who may either struggle to learn the playbook or struggle to understand the philosophies behind the plays, but I think most professional quarterbacks are smart enough to learn it on their own. If they are having an issue, they can go to their position coach and clear things up. Tim Rattay and Jason Campbell won't need to go over to Todd Collins' house after school for playbook tutoring, but it sounds like that's what you are trying to say here.

And continuing to stand by the point that Collins has a future because Saunders has coached him for awhile is assinine at best. We have NO idea what Saunders thinks of Collins as a player outside of the comfort level to play him in a pinch. I'm not pish-poshing his judgement because I'm not the one trying to guess what his judgement is.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

3-6 w/ Brunell. 2-5 w/ JC. Is the difference really that big?

Well, as I stated before, not really.

Lets say we kept Brunell in there and beat Philadelphia and Tampa Bay. Well, we are still only 7-9, miss the playoffs anyway, and Campbell still has no playing experience.

Basically I'm just defending Gibbs' decision for 1) Waiting as long as he did to see if the defense got turned around, and 2) Making the switch when he did.

I'm just pointing out that we would have won some more games (whoop-de-do) had we kept Brunell in, not saying it was a bad decision to pull him when we did.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by offiss

I have to diagree with that, the sooner we get a legitamate backup in here the sooner he can start learning the system and the players around him, unless someone believes that Campbell can lead us to a SB this season [because we know Brunell can't] then it's senseless to keep him around this season, we have to prepare for the future not worry about winning 1 or 2 extra games if Campbell goes down, because with Brunell those 1 or 2 games will result in a lesser draft pick not a playoff berth.

Well, if God came to me and guarenteed Jason Campbell's knees immunity vs. a pass rush, then I could really care less what happens to Brunell.

Until then, we need a competant backup.