Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots?

firstdown · 12-13-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celts32

35-47 with 1 winning season out of 6 without Brady...I did not make that up...those are the facts.

Those maybe the facts but facts do not always tell the whole story. The first two years with the brown he was rebuilding the team and getting better. The third he went to the playoffs and I think beat the pats in the first round. His forth year was when the Browns picked up and moved in the middle of the season so I'm not sure if that year can be put on him. Even if you think Brady has made him he also gets the credit for drafting him and making them what they are today. It is the job of the coach to find, train and make them a great team. A whole bunch of other coaches did not have the vision to draft Brady and looked over him.

celts32 · 12-13-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

Those maybe the facts but facts do not always tell the whole story. The first two years with the brown he was rebuilding the team and getting better. The third he went to the playoffs and I think beat the pats in the first round. His forth year was when the Browns picked up and moved in the middle of the season so I'm not sure if that year can be put on him. Even if you think Brady has made him he also gets the credit for drafting him and making them what they are today. It is the job of the coach to find, train and make them a great team. A whole bunch of other coaches did not have the vision to draft Brady and looked over him.

Brady was drafted before he got there. I think Belichek is a good coach...just not the all time greatest like he is portrayed as these days.

12thMan · 12-13-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celts32

Brady was drafted before he got there. I think Belichek is a good coach...just not the all time greatest like he is portrayed as these days.

Celts, if he isn't one of the all-time greats then what measuring stick are you using?

firstdown · 12-13-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celts32

Brady was drafted before he got there. I think Belichek is a good coach...just not the all time greatest like he is portrayed as these days.

Wrong, Belichek was hired in 1/2000 and Brady was aquired in the 2000 draft which was in 4/2000. So does that now make him a great coach?

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 01:32 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't give Belichick too much credit for Brady. I'm of the opinion that great quarterbacks have intangibles that can't be taught, and coaching has less of an impact on their performance than their god-given abilities do.

I think the great quarterbacks like Montana, Bradshaw, Marino, Aikman, Manning and Brady are great, and would have been great, regardless of their coach. They might have been less successful with lesser coaches, but they still would have been great.

Give Belichick credit for making the Pats great, but don't give him credit for making Brady great. Afterall, if Belichick knew he was so great, why did it require an injury to Bledsoe to put him in?

Defensewins · 12-13-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I think the great quarterbacks like Montana, Bradshaw, Marino, Aikman, Manning and Brady are great, and would have been great, regardless of their coach. They might have been less successful with lesser coaches, but they still would have been great.

Give Belichick credit for making the Pats great, but don't give him credit for making Brady great. Afterall, if Belichick knew he was so great, why did it require an injury to Bledsoe to put him in?

I think you are over simplifying.
99% of all college QB's are not ready to play at a high level when they first arrive in the NFL. Marino and Roethlisberger are the only two that come to mind that came in with a bang.. IT takes time to develop them to the level that is required to be great in the NFL. Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Manning were not very successful their first couple of years. In fact they really sucked. With COACHING and learning the pro system they became great. They had to work at it. Nobody wanted Brady coming out of college.
Which brings me to another point. I think the offensive system each QB plays in makes a big difference. Montana playing under Walsh and his great system helped him. Well Bellicheck pretty much ran the same system until this year when he started to play more of the 3 and 4 wr system.

firstdown · 12-13-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I'm sorry, but I can't give Belichick too much credit for Brady. I'm of the opinion that great quarterbacks have intangibles that can't be taught, and coaching has less of an impact on their performance than their god-given abilities do.

I think the great quarterbacks like Montana, Bradshaw, Marino, Aikman, Manning and Brady are great, and would have been great, regardless of their coach. They might have been less successful with lesser coaches, but they still would have been great.

Give Belichick credit for making the Pats great, but don't give him credit for making Brady great. Afterall, if Belichick knew he was so great, why did it require an injury to Bledsoe to put him in?

I never said that he made Brady great. I said he picked him up in the draft when all the other coaches had passed him over. Others have said that Brady has made the Pats what they are and my point that great coaches find these types of players and he should get that credit.

12thMan · 12-13-2007, 02:19 PM

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

BleedBurgundy · 12-13-2007, 02:23 PM

I think you could make the argument that the single most valuable person to the Patriots' dynasty is Scott Pioli. He has done an amazing job acquiring talent, both drafted and free agent. Their personnel department is the benchmark in the NFL.

firstdown · 12-13-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

If I'm correct he has another SB ring as a DC. I love how people credit everyone around BB but he gets little credit.

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I think you are over simplifying.
99% of all college QB's are not ready to play at a high level when they first arrive in the NFL. Marino and Roethlisberger are the only two that come to mind that came in with a bang.. IT takes time to develop them to the level that is required to be great in the NFL. Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Manning were not very successful their first couple of years. In fact they really sucked. With COACHING and learning the pro system they became great. They had to work at it. Nobody wanted Brady coming out of college.
Which brings me to another point. I think the offensive system each QB plays in makes a big difference. Montana playing under Walsh and his great system helped him. Well Bellicheck pretty much ran the same system until this year when he started to play more of the 3 and 4 wr system.

I know what you're saying, and I agree with you. However, those great quarterbacks would have still been great with lesser coaches -- they just wouldn't have been as successful, IMO. Does that make sense?

Mc2guy · 12-13-2007, 02:55 PM

I really admire the Patriots as a football team on the field, just as I admire ExxonMobil or Walmart in business. They are effective, produce results, and are ruthless wth their competition. They do everything they can to achieve a competitive advantage and exploit every possible weakness of their opponent. These traits are admirable in many ways.

However, just as I can't stand ExxonMobil or Walmart, I can't stand the Patriots. Despite their performance, playing the part of the big bully in the room rarely endears you to anyone, and the arrogance, smugness, and general spitefullness for anyone who dares criticize them, not to mentior the rules of the game is a real turn-off.

Since football is entertainment, we expect more from the teams that ruthless efficiency on the field. We expect players to abide by the rules of society (Vick), we expect courtesy and openness to the media (again, this is entertainment we are talking about here), and most of all we expect gratitude for the tremendous gift that WE THE FANS, have bestowed on these players and coaches to be able to play a game for asinine amounts of money. Gratitude manifests itself in the form of courtesy, humility, and access. If these expectations are not met, then many paying customers (myself included) don't appreciate it and hence, the backlash against the Patriots.

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner.

I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins.

The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

I agree. I do think Belichick is a great coach. I'm just not so sure he is a great person, and that is where the hate for the Pats is derived, IMO.

I credit Belichick for making the Pats great, but I don't give him credit for making Brady great. I'll credit him for finding him, and drafting him (although I'm not sure if he deserves more credit than the Pats FO).

If great QBs are made great by coaching, and not born that way, you'd have a lot more stories like Brady's. Granted there are other Cinderella stories, but not many.

12thMan · 12-13-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I know what you're saying, and I agree with you. However, those great quarterbacks would have still been great with lesser coaches -- they just wouldn't have been as successful, IMO. Does that make sense?

True, Ghetto. But even that is subjective to an extent. Brady may or may not be this good without Belichick. What isn't subjective, however, are Belichick's championships.

GhettoDogAllStars · 12-13-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firstdown

I never said that he made Brady great. I said he picked him up in the draft when all the other coaches had passed him over. Others have said that Brady has made the Pats what they are and my point that great coaches find these types of players and he should get that credit.

Yeah, my post wasn't directed at you, per se. I was just stating my opinion on the matter.

Like 12th said, "they have mutually benefited from each other."

12-13-2007, 01:32 PM	#125
GhettoDogAllStars Playmaker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Age: 42 Posts: 2,762	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I'm sorry, but I can't give Belichick too much credit for Brady. I'm of the opinion that great quarterbacks have intangibles that can't be taught, and coaching has less of an impact on their performance than their god-given abilities do. I think the great quarterbacks like Montana, Bradshaw, Marino, Aikman, Manning and Brady are great, and would have been great, regardless of their coach. They might have been less successful with lesser coaches, but they still would have been great. Give Belichick credit for making the Pats great, but don't give him credit for making Brady great. Afterall, if Belichick knew he was so great, why did it require an injury to Bledsoe to put him in? __________________ To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered.

12-13-2007, 02:19 PM	#128
12thMan MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: washington, D.C. Posts: 11,460	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? This argument that Belichick is somehow a good coach, but not a great one is absurd. Putting personal feelings aside for a minute, you can't argue with three Super Bowls and a fourth one around the corner. I'll go a step further, here's a guy that lost both his defensive and offensive coordinator in the same year and didn't miss a beat. Loss one of the best field goal kickers of all time, and he still wins. The fact is both Belichick and Brady have mutually benefited from each other. I really think it's that simple.

12-13-2007, 02:23 PM	#129
BleedBurgundy Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,471	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I think you could make the argument that the single most valuable person to the Patriots' dynasty is Scott Pioli. He has done an amazing job acquiring talent, both drafted and free agent. Their personnel department is the benchmark in the NFL. __________________ "All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine

12-13-2007, 02:55 PM	#132
Mc2guy Special Teams Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Burke, VA Age: 47 Posts: 287	Re: Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots? I really admire the Patriots as a football team on the field, just as I admire ExxonMobil or Walmart in business. They are effective, produce results, and are ruthless wth their competition. They do everything they can to achieve a competitive advantage and exploit every possible weakness of their opponent. These traits are admirable in many ways. However, just as I can't stand ExxonMobil or Walmart, I can't stand the Patriots. Despite their performance, playing the part of the big bully in the room rarely endears you to anyone, and the arrogance, smugness, and general spitefullness for anyone who dares criticize them, not to mentior the rules of the game is a real turn-off. Since football is entertainment, we expect more from the teams that ruthless efficiency on the field. We expect players to abide by the rules of society (Vick), we expect courtesy and openness to the media (again, this is entertainment we are talking about here), and most of all we expect gratitude for the tremendous gift that WE THE FANS, have bestowed on these players and coaches to be able to play a game for asinine amounts of money. Gratitude manifests itself in the form of courtesy, humility, and access. If these expectations are not met, then many paying customers (myself included) don't appreciate it and hence, the backlash against the Patriots.

Why All The Hate Toward The Patriots?

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