Report: Redskins are pursuing Vincent Jackson

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

To build a team over the long haul we need to keep our top picks. Why go for Jackson if we can target a great WR in the first round or two next season that will stay around for awhile for lesser cost to the franchise? Multiple picks for a guy, however good he is, is not warranted. Hamo is right, we have too many holes still to plug in the lines still, plus LB and DB. Fletch might decide to retire after this season or next. LB is going to be a top need for us ASAP. We have already given up a lot for both McNabb and Brown. I like the FA moves, in that they have been smart and have addressed needs, but we still are almost exclusively using FA to build a team.

Yep you are right in that LB is a big need for this team moving forward as well as DL next years draft. We have alot of age and people playing out of position in both of those positions.


One of the problems I have with drafting WR is we never draft them well at all.

Now maybe that will change with MS and BA in charge, but drafting WR is a gamble in my opinion. I like grabbing proven guys from FA when it comes to this position.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I hear you, I just feel like Marshall is a really dynamic playmaker. He has a penchant for big time catches, and often finds spectacular ways to find the endzone after the catch. I know "dynamic playmaker" is tough to quantify (and I also know that his YPC doesn't help that argument), but that's just my opinion.

Also, when you're targeted as often as Marshall was in Denver, chances are your YPC is going to be lower. He was used so much in both the short, intermediate, and deep passing game, much more so than VJ in SD. Not that VJ couldn't be that guy, he just wasn't for reasons you pointed out (Gates and good pass catching RBs).

I have no doubt if you swapped VJ's role in SD with Brandon Marshall, the YPC numbers would have been just as good.

I do think Marshall's best days are ahead of him, which is why I've refrained from ripping the Dolphins from throwing two second round picks at him. As a prospective pickup, there's clearly plenty of talent there to work with.

As a player, Marshall is sort of a workhorse receiver. Problem is, I'm not really sure there's a spot for a workhorse receiver in an NFL offense. Which is to say, if I know I have a guy who can get 10 catches a game on 18 to 20 targets, but is only going to turn those 20 plays into 120 yards, well, now I'm averaging 6 yards per pass. If JaMarcus Russell is your quarterback, that's great! Get that man the football!

I think Marshall can be valuable if one out of every ten of his catches can go for a touchdown, as they did this year. But that's a career high mark. Over his career, it's been one in every fourteen to sixteen passes. In a high scoring offense. That's a guy who, traditionally, isn't very good in the red zone. And so if you aren't good at getting yards, and you're not good in the red zone, and you're going to act like an immature baby, why would I want you on my team?

Jackson does all those things well, and by all accounts, isn't out there to embarrass his teammates or his family name. And I think the numbers speak for themselves: he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Larry Fitzgerald. We don't discount Fitz' performance for having his best three years with a future hall of fame passer, and so Jackson shouldn't be seen as simply a product of Philip Rivers' genius.

[GTripp0012]

It should also be noted that Marshall's Blache-adjusted TD total in 2010 is just 8. Landry/Smoot/Hall/Rogers combined to allow him to have his only two TD receptions on "long" passes last year by showing him enough respect to *not* cover him. At all.

[rbanerjee23]

Originally Posted by Redskin Jim

I don't think Matty's questioning your logic, just stating you seem to be taking a pessimistic stance on the current roster moves.

Wow...way to completely misinterpret my 'glass-half empty' post. If you look at some of my other posts or what I have said in this thread, I have never said that getting McNabb, Williams, Brown etc. were bad moves. In fact, I have genuine optimism going forward. I even said, "there is reason to be optimistic" ad verbatim.

My posts are directed at those who say: 1. With Vincent Jackson, we are superbowl contenders or 2. Our offensive line is the best in the division.

My point is, this current group has proven nothing. Does that mean I am saying they are bad? No, Does it mean that we should be getting ready to send 20 players to the pro bowl? Resoundingly no.

It's not pessimistic to say that this team is NOT a surefire Superbowl Contender. If it is then label me a pessimist.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

Let's just wait till next year to draft Julio Jones or Malcolm Floyd.

Or A.J. Green (aren't you in Georgia?).

Phenomenal underclassman in college football this year. If we don't acquire a big name receiver, it seems like a virtual certainty we'll take a big name player in the first round next year. And I honestly think we'll probably get a no. 2 receiver out of Malcolm Kelly, starting this year with a 600 yard, 4 TD season. At least, that's my prediction.

600/4 doesn't get you very far if you don't have a guy who can do 850/8 on a yearly basis on the outside. Add ten more TDs from Cooley/Davis and now you have 22 passing TDs split amongst just your top four guys, which is excellent production. Just add some competent backups and that's a top ten passing offense.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Or A.J. Green (aren't you in Georgia?).

Phenomenal underclassman in college football this year. If we don't acquire a big name receiver, it seems like a virtual certainty we'll take a big name player in the first round next year. And I honestly think we'll probably get a no. 2 receiver out of Malcolm Kelly, starting this year with a 600 yard, 4 TD season. At least, that's my prediction.

600/4 doesn't get you very far if you don't have a guy who can do 850/8 on a yearly basis on the outside. Add ten more TDs from Cooley/Davis and now you have 22 passing TDs split amongst just your top four guys, which is excellent production. Just add some competent backups and that's a top ten passing offense.

Exactly why I didn't mention him. All indications have him going in the top 5 next year though I must admit his numbers leave something to be desiered.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

Exactly why I didn't mention him. All indications have him going in the top 5 next year though I must admit his numbers leave something to be desiered.

Haven't looked at his numbers, so I'll take your word for it.

Honestly, I don't even go to college numbers until a guy starts talking about making a jump to the NFL, because guys who look totally lost in his first two seasons sometimes kill it for their last two (not unlike the NFL). And, in the case of Rex Grossman (and others), vice versa. What Green does this year is going to determine more than half of his NFL (draft) player profile, so hopefully, he tears up the SEC this year, and is around when we pick.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

Anyone else getting the feeling that McNabb's window of time left before he starts to noticeably decline (2-3 years) is the window allen and shanny want to win a SB?

Just seems like we are in a win now or next year mode.

top 10 defense? check
Getting a franchise qb? check
Getting a LT and RT? check
Getting a true no. 1 receiver to reap the benefits of having a franchise qb and competent O line? TBD.

and don't forget not being a SB champion team but staying in a Holiday Inn Express the night before games will make them play like one.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I do think Marshall's best days are ahead of him, which is why I've refrained from ripping the Dolphins from throwing two second round picks at him. As a prospective pickup, there's clearly plenty of talent there to work with.

As a player, Marshall is sort of a workhorse receiver. Problem is, I'm not really sure there's a spot for a workhorse receiver in an NFL offense. Which is to say, if I know I have a guy who can get 10 catches a game on 18 to 20 targets, but is only going to turn those 20 plays into 120 yards, well, now I'm averaging 6 yards per pass. If JaMarcus Russell is your quarterback, that's great! Get that man the football!

I think Marshall can be valuable if one out of every ten of his catches can go for a touchdown, as they did this year. But that's a career high mark. Over his career, it's been one in every fourteen to sixteen passes. In a high scoring offense. That's a guy who, traditionally, isn't very good in the red zone. And so if you aren't good at getting yards, and you're not good in the red zone, and you're going to act like an immature baby, why would I want you on my team?


Jackson does all those things well, and by all accounts, isn't out there to embarrass his teammates or his family name. And I think the numbers speak for themselves: he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Larry Fitzgerald. We don't discount Fitz' performance for having his best three years with a future hall of fame passer, and so Jackson shouldn't be seen as simply a product of Philip Rivers' genius.

Well when you say "over his career," you're really only talking about three seasons, during which he was 23-25 years old. He's getting better. Again, if VJ saw all the targets BM saw, especially in the short passing game, I'm sure his YPC would be more similar to BM's. Denver didn't have an Antonio Gates or Sproles/LT to catch passes out of the backfield. I don't think VJ's success is solely a product of Rivers. I think he's a great talent.

At some point this became the Brandon Marshall vs. Vincent Jackson thread. I think they're both great, and there are arguments on both sides for why one is better than the other. It's sort of apples to apples. I'll be happy to have one or both on any of my fantasy teams this fall.

As far as Jackson embarrassing teammates/family, maybe his antics aren't on BM's level, but 2 or 3 DUI's and an upcoming suspension isn't too far off. Plus I hear the fanbase out in SD is pretty much over the guy.

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Anyone else just hear on NFL total access that Vincent Jackson is currently catching passes and working out with Mcnabb in Arizona right now? They also talked about the possibility of the skins working out a 3 team deal to acquire Jackson and get rid of haynesworth to reduce the amount of picks involved.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Well when you say "over his career," you're really only talking about three seasons, during which he was 23-25 years old. He's getting better. Again, if VJ saw all the targets BM saw, especially in the short passing game, I'm sure his YPC would be more similar to BM's. Denver didn't have an Antonio Gates or Sproles/LT to catch passes out of the backfield. I don't think VJ's success is solely a product of Rivers. I think he's a great talent.

At some point this became the Brandon Marshall vs. Vincent Jackson thread. I think they're both great, and there are arguments on both sides for why one is better than the other. It's sort of apples to apples. I'll be happy to have one or both on any of my fantasy teams this fall.

As far as Jackson embarrassing teammates/family, maybe his antics aren't on BM's level, but 2 or 3 DUI's and an upcoming suspension isn't too far off. Plus I hear the fanbase out in SD is pretty much over the guy.

I don't think you're wrong. More short targets for VJ would mean more catches that fail to pick up first downs which would mean less value per play. I follow that logic completely: Jackson clearly benefits from the role Norv calls for him.

I don't necessarily think it reverses though. I don't think you could have Marshall play the role of Jackson in the Chargers offense and still have a top five passing offense, top five scoring offense, or necessarily have Marshall not actively hurting the offense. Now, the Miami Dolphins are betting two valuable second round picks and tens of millions of dollars that GTripp has no f-ing clue what he's talking about. That's...intimidating. But it's also not my loss if they are wrong.

And like you said, he's not quite done improving/refining. The veteran/aged Brandon Marshall is going to be a different player than the developing Marshall. Probably along the lines of a pure possession receiver.

My whole point all along was that I don't really think it is apples to apples, and if you were ever going to consider throwing a top draft pick at a veteran player, might as well make it a 27-year old who is at the top of his craft. There are ALWAYS good reasons to suspect that it's a bad idea to give up picks for players. There's a really good chance that giving up picks for players is always a losing proposition, and never a good idea. However, in the absence of this conclusion, Jackson is about as close to a sure-thing elite talent as it gets. And no one at his level (5+ WPA "wins" in the last two seasons) is ever on the trading block. Or at least not since Jared Allen was two seasons ago.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't think you're wrong. More short targets for VJ would mean more catches that fail to pick up first downs which would mean less value per play. I follow that logic completely: Jackson clearly benefits from the role Norv calls for him.

I don't necessarily think it reverses though. I don't think you could have Marshall play the role of Jackson in the Chargers offense and still have a top five passing offense, top five scoring offense, or necessarily have Marshall not actively hurting the offense. Now, the Miami Dolphins are betting two valuable second round picks and tens of millions of dollars that GTripp has no f-ing clue what he's talking about. That's...intimidating. But it's also not my loss if they are wrong.

And like you said, he's not quite done improving/refining. The veteran/aged Brandon Marshall is going to be a different player than the developing Marshall. Probably along the lines of a pure possession receiver.

My whole point all along was that I don't really think it is apples to apples, and if you were ever going to consider throwing a top draft pick at a veteran player, might as well make it a 27-year old who is at the top of his craft. There are ALWAYS good reasons to suspect that it's a bad idea to give up picks for players. There's a really good chance that giving up picks for players is always a losing proposition, and never a good idea. However, in the absence of this conclusion, Jackson is about as close to a sure-thing elite talent as it gets. And no one at his level (5+ WPA "wins" in the last two seasons) is ever on the trading block. Or at least not since Jared Allen was two seasons ago.

I lol'd. That's signature worthy.

I guess we're almost in agreement, however I do think if SD used Marshall like they did VJ, they would have still had good results. He's not quite the physical specimen that VJ is, but he's an elite receiver who can go underneath and up top with success. Basically I think BM is a bit more a stud WR than you do.

Good discussion. I talked more football on this site today than I have in months. I'm so jacked for the season.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfanthru&thru

Anyone else just hear on NFL total access that Vincent Jackson is currently catching passes and working out with Mcnabb in Arizona right now? They also talked about the possibility of the skins working out a 3 team deal to acquire Jackson and get rid of haynesworth to reduce the amount of picks involved.

That's pretty big news.

The second part seems like pure speculation by the NFLN panel, who knows who is actually interested in Haynesworth? (Raiders?...he'd make a lot of sense for that defense), because SD probably wants nothing to do with him, but 3 team deals are hard.

They're also a Shanahan specialty (the 2006 John Abraham trade had nothing to do with Denver, but he finagled a trade up for Cutler out of it).

[MTK]

Originally Posted by rbanerjee23

Wow...way to completely misinterpret my 'glass-half empty' post. If you look at some of my other posts or what I have said in this thread, I have never said that getting McNabb, Williams, Brown etc. were bad moves. In fact, I have genuine optimism going forward. I even said, "there is reason to be optimistic" ad verbatim.

My posts are directed at those who say: 1. With Vincent Jackson, we are superbowl contenders or 2. Our offensive line is the best in the division.

My point is, this current group has proven nothing. Does that mean I am saying they are bad? No, Does it mean that we should be getting ready to send 20 players to the pro bowl? Resoundingly no.

It's not pessimistic to say that this team is NOT a surefire Superbowl Contender. If it is then label me a pessimist.

I was merely referring to these takes you had on these moves:

top 10 defense? no idea b/c this group w/ the 3-4 is untested
franchise qb? no b/c McNabb is not the long term answer
Getting a LT and RT? yeah, we acquired a LT and RT. One is coming off a major injury and is changing positions, the other is a rookie who wasn't the top ranked tackle in the draft
Solid RB core? No, bunch of old-timers
The list could go on and on about the deficiencies.

Sounded pessimistic to me.

In the grand scheme I get what you're saying now.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That's pretty big news.

The second part seems like pure speculation by the NFLN panel, who knows who is actually interested in Haynesworth? (Raiders?...he'd make a lot of sense for that defense), because SD probably wants nothing to do with him, but 3 team deals are hard.

They're also a Shanahan specialty (the 2006 John Abraham trade had nothing to do with Denver, but he finagled a trade up for Cutler out of it).

Seattle was floated out there a week or so ago as being possibly interested.