Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

[SBXVII]

Hall Still Has An Eye For Interceptions

After three preseason games, the Redskins’ defense is allowing 14.7 points per game and a modest 262.7 yards a game. They have recorded 10 sacks and two interceptions.

This is whats impressing me, although it's only preseason.... I think last year points per game was like 21 and yrds per game was like double at 400 or more. They have done a lot to fix the problem if this continues into the regular season.

[Ruhskins]

What I hate about this whole Hall bashing/praise argument is that people disregard the overall communication problem that exists among the defensive backs. People have such a hard on hatred for Hall, that all they see are his faults and proceed to b*tch and whine about it to the point that it takes over threads. Then you have people that proceed to argue back, making Hall sound like he's the best ever.

Our defensive backs as a group have problems and they do not begin or end with Halls flaws. For many years we've seen all of our secondary get beat deep, screw up assignments, and completely botch the zone coverage. This offseason having our starting safeties (Atogwe and Landry) and a new starting corner (Wilson) out with injury during training camp and preaseason games did not help.

I hope that Haslett, the DB coaches, and the secondary gets their act together on this overall problem. Unfortunately, this adjustment will need to happen during the regular season.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

What I hate about this whole Hall bashing/praise argument is that people disregard the overall communication problem that exists among the defensive backs. People have such a hard on hatred for Hall, that all they see are his faults and proceed to b*tch and whine about it to the point that it takes over threads. Then you have people that proceed to argue back, making Hall sound like he's the best ever.

Our defensive backs as a group have problems and they do not begin or end with Halls flaws. For many years we've seen all of our secondary get beat deep, screw up assignments, and completely botch the zone coverage. This offseason having our starting safeties (Atogwe and Landry) and a new starting corner (Wilson) out with injury during training camp and preaseason games did not help.

I hope that Haslett, the DB coaches, and the secondary gets their act together on this overall problem. Unfortunately, this adjustment will need to happen during the regular season.

You very succinctly put the whole Hall argument into perspective. Good post.

[53Fan]

Nice post Ruhskins. We've had a problem back there for years. Hopefully the play of this front 7 will help out until we get some chemistry back there. Sure wish ST was here to enjoy this lineup.

[GTripp0012]

Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.

[Swarley]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.

Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?

[SFREDSKIN]

I bet he won't be with the Redskins next year, he will be asked to rework his contract. He sure isn't worth what he is being paid.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?

Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

[Swarley]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

[GTripp0012]

I am not questioning the value of Hall's big plays to the Redskins. Just the frequency of them.

[Swarley]

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)

I'm not even sure I have a concrete opinion on whether Hall truly holds back the defense, or whether he's more of an innocent bystander in a vortex of suck that is our pass defense. I waffle on this. I totally agree with you that simply getting rid of Hall wouldn't fix all of our defensive problems. It would make Byron Westbrook a starting corner.

I don't disagree with those who say he improved in tackling last year. He wasn't good in run support, but for all the times that teams tried that "now" smoke screen against Hall, he generally stopped the receiver before it started. Can he tackle a back in space? No. And neither can Rocky McIntosh, a linebacker. Hall used to struggle to put receivers on the ground, and I don't think he did last year. Young players can improve and I believe that's what happened to Hall's tackling skill. He got better at it.

I think Hall is a problem on this defense. And when I see him do something self-absorbed, there are days I'm certain we'd be better off without him and his contract. Most of the time, I'm able to remind myself that most football teams don't have two good corners, and some teams absolutely start players who don't contribute as much as Hall does. But my biggest issue is the selfishness that leads to penalties of the 5 and 15 yard variety.

Hall thinks he's good enough where his on-field contributions outweigh any flags he may get for extracurricular activity. And that's where my support for him as a Redskin ends.

[Bucket]

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Bucket

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.

Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.