[QUOTE=Mattyk;959414]I look at it as we're losing with a bad D. Not sure how we can ask for much more at this point from RG3. He's holding up his end of the bargain.[/QUOTE]

He sure as hell is Matty. He is aces up and down in my book. Kid is money - smart- a good kid - all the tools. He will win championships with the Redskins. I dont care who the hell his coach is to tell you the truth. He is special as all hell.


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Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Mattyk;959341]Or maybe your point is a little foggy. I didn't see you mention the D at all, just going on and on about RG3.

He's great no doubt, but he can't do it alone.[/quote]

Aren't you on the side of the arguement that gives examples of the Giants, packers and the Patriots as reasons why defense is not necessarily all that important? Maybe not you who quoted it, but many people have given those examples as why we could still win. Even though we are not, and now its due to not getting any help from the Defense. Correct me if I am wrong, but this defense is almost ALL Shanahans men, over 3 years worth of his men, and its now last in the league. I doubt that even changing the coordinator is going to be of much help, so again, since defense is now very necessary to win and a very important cog (excuse), we are again 3 years away from fixing THIS problem.

Point I am making is that if Shanahan was to come in here and team build, he has absolutely neglected the other side of the ball. We are now again 3 years away from fielding a team decent enough to be considered a contender due to the absolutely horrid play of our team on that side of the ball. With this logic, very often applied during these types of "Shanahan, Haslett, To fire or not to Fire" discussions, once we fix one side, the other side will be old, ineffective and abysmal, and we are right back to square one. Being just a couple years away. Its a football team, and if a coach is worth his weight in whatever, he gets his players to perform or he doesn't. They all have the same cap, the same draft picks, and the same rules. Its the coaches that are different, and this coach can not keep up, and we will NEVER be a serious contender for anything as long as Mike Shanahan is here at the helm. Again, just my opinion, but I think its fairly valid to say a coach who hasn't done squat in the league as far as playoffs and sustained success is concerned other than the times he has a uber elite QB behind center just cannot get it done without that Uber talent. He has proven it time and time again, we were just so desperate to get rid of zorn that we all figured he would be an upgrade. Sure Seems like he isn't. I haven't seen much of anything different other than our youth and QB, still losing, but now with the worst defense in the league and a patchwork OLine that is overachieving due to a ultra mobile QB. And this whole thing about the mood and pride at Redskins park has changed in the last 3 years, ok.

I'll take winning over a positive attitude anyday, thanks. Until that happy sunshiny feeling translates into sustained success on the field, call me a non believer in anything Shanahan is selling.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=punch it in;959417]He sure as hell is Matty. He is aces up and down in my book. Kid is money - smart- a good kid - all the tools. He will win championships with the Redskins. I dont care who the hell his coach is to tell you the truth. He is special as all hell.
[/quote]



It's way too early to start crowing him a champion. Panther fans said the same thing as you are. Now, they are blaming everybody under the sun, and many pointing the fingers at Cam.


I've said numerous times, years 2 and 3 are going to be more important than this first year. Right now, I don't think we are running our conventional offense and have tailored it to his skills. This is the same thing that Chudzinski did with Cam in Carolina. Now, they are taking the training wheels off and finding out he's not so great at running the conventional offense. Not only that, defenses are now more prepared to face that read option they were doing and were shutting that down as well. Cam was a hero last year, now seems Chud is becoming a goat.

The two things that will separate a QB like RGIII and Cam is, maturity and intelligence. This is why I think RGIII will overcome and be a big time player for a while. That said, still to early to crown him. ;)

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;959419]It's way too early to start crowing him a champion. Panther fans said the same thing as you are. Now, they are blaming everybody under the sun, and many pointing the fingers at Cam.


I've said numerous times, years 2 and 3 are going to be more important than this first year. Right now, I don't think we are running our conventional offense and have tailored it to his skills. This is the same thing that Chudzinski did with Cam in Carolina. Now, they are taking the training wheels off and finding out he's not so great at running the conventional offense. Not only that, defenses are now more prepared to face that read option they were doing and were shutting that down as well. Cam was a hero last year, now seems Chud is becoming a goat.

[B][I]The two things that will separate a QB like RGIII and Cam is, maturity and intelligence. This is why I think RGIII will overcome and be a big time player for a while. That said, still to early to crown him[/I][/B]. ;)[/quote]

Wonderful point. After seeing Cam Newton do what he did last year, I am completely baffled as to why he isn't doing ANYTHING this year. Maybe the fact that the gimmicky college style offense takes a half a season or a little more for teams to scheme for, and once the playing field is leveled on a scheme basis, that advantage is very much diminished. I too think Shanny will be here next year. I do not think we will sniff 8-8 this year, but if he does stay, next year will truly be a test for this regime. Because we will see if he can adjust to defenses adjusting from being able to look at 16 games of tape on our looks and formations, shifts, playcalling tendencies, etc........ I do believe it will be a defining season, whether I am completely wrong and RG3 has ridiculous success next year, because the coaching can plan for the "plans" and adjust, or if he is relying on RG3, runs the same Baylor looks and spreads, and RG3 struggles like Newton this year. If anyone can avoid a sophmore slump, I do believe I have a little, no, ALOT more faith in our guy than Fig Newton. Kyle will definitely have his work cut out for him during this offseason. I am cautiously optimistic, if only for the fact the Griffin looks like Christ with a pigskin, turning water into gatorade and such............

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;959419]It's way too early to start crowing him a champion. Panther fans said the same thing as you are. Now, they are blaming everybody under the sun, and many pointing the fingers at Cam.


I've said numerous times, years 2 and 3 are going to be more important than this first year. Right now, I don't think we are running our conventional offense and have tailored it to his skills. This is the same thing that Chudzinski did with Cam in Carolina. Now, they are taking the training wheels off and finding out he's not so great at running the conventional offense. Not only that, defenses are now more prepared to face that read option they were doing and were shutting that down as well. Cam was a hero last year, now seems Chud is becoming a goat.

The two things that will separate a QB like RGIII and Cam is, maturity and intelligence. This is why I think RGIII will overcome and be a big time player for a while. That said, still to early to crown him. ;)[/QUOTE]

Cam is a quitter. You will never see RG -3 sulking on tge sidelines or making excuses. He is mature beyond his years. Takes character and skill to win a championship. He has both. I guess its up to your boy Shanny to put a defense/ DC in place to make RG-3 and this offense's success equal wins. I think that what he has shown so far after 8 games and the knowledge that his character bodes well as far as continuing to learn along with his obvious desire to win equal the markings of a young champion. I stand by my statement. He will win a championship with the Redskins. Is it a guess - an opinion. Obviously. Is it an educated one based on legit skill and legit leadership - aka - the tangibles and intangibles it takes to be a champion - yes sir it is. :)


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Isn't Mike an offensive coach?? Hmm

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

I think Punch it in would commit suicide if RG3 turned out to be Vince Young II

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Mattyk;959387]Zorn.

And that worked just swell.[/quote]

Zorn 2008 8-8 (PA) D-6 (PS) O-28
Zorn 2009 4-12 (PA) D-18 (PS) O-26
Shanahan 2010 6-10 (PA) D-21 (PS) O-25
Shanahan 2011 5-11 (PA) D-21 (PS) O-26

According to our friend Skinsfanok, "Stats don't lie."

I don't always go by stats myself as I think there are variables to consider such as Zorn wasn't going through a defensive scheme change like Shanahan. In fact I'm not sure Zorn had any imput with the defense whatsoever. On the other side...Shanny handpicked his DC and scheme and has more power in his position than Zorn ever dreamed of.
Now...I am very happy with the fact that we have RG3..we actually have drafted oline since Mike has been here...the oline is playing well..we're an exciting team scoring points..we have finally become a young team...I expect our FA receivers to do very well...we have a running game with a fine young rookie...love the LB's we've drafted. Love alot of things Mike has done for this team. I voted to wait until the end of the year and decide...but if he doesn't hire a DC that can turn this defense into an asset instead of a liability and leav"e the guy alone to do his thing then I'm ready for someone else to takeover this team.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

Just one more thing and I'll try to leave it alone. When we talk of how Mike has brought in good young talent and turned this roster around who are we comparing him to.....Vinny? I think most coaches would have done the same thing now that Allen is here and it's actually possible. Coach the offense...get a good DC and let him do his thing Mike. Let's win some games baby!

[QUOTE=Bucket;959423]I think Punch it in would commit suicide if RG3 turned out to be Vince Young II[/QUOTE]

Maybe I will be the president of his fan club one day.

Edit: if i was ever going to commit suicide over football related matters it would have been sometime during the John Beck era. My brain was telling me to stop watching but my eyes werent listening and so than my brain was telling me to stick hot pokers in my eyes , which probably would have looked like a suicide even though it was just a desperation move to never have to see john beck play again. But Than Rex came back and i just threw up in my mouth alot and beat my skull with blunt objects.
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[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;959422]Isn't Mike an offensive coach?? Hmm[/QUOTE]

Yeah Thats why i said / DC - its Shannys call who takes over the D post Haslett rite?


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Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Mattyk;959387]Zorn.

And that worked just swell.[/quote]

Again, extremes (skins, lol) vs nuance. Zorn vs Sean Peyton.

Sorry Matty, this place is better than Extreme Skins but I couldn't resist :)

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

No. The Skins put up one horrid game and folks want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

blowout losses happen. Considering this is the first one (with a rookie QB, mind you) its nothing to freak out about. If the Texans can ger blown out, with perhaps the most prolific offense in the leauge, then I don't think you can begrudge our team for one.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Mechanix544;959418][B]Aren't you on the side of the arguement that gives examples of the Giants, packers and the Patriots as reasons why defense is not necessarily all that important?[/B] Maybe not you who quoted it, but many people have given those examples as why we could still win. Even though we are not, and now its due to not getting any help from the Defense. Correct me if I am wrong, but this defense is almost ALL Shanahans men, over 3 years worth of his men, and its now last in the league. I doubt that even changing the coordinator is going to be of much help, so again, since defense is now very necessary to win and a very important cog (excuse), we are again 3 years away from fixing THIS problem.

Point I am making is that if Shanahan was to come in here and team build, he has absolutely neglected the other side of the ball. We are now again 3 years away from fielding a team decent enough to be considered a contender due to the absolutely horrid play of our team on that side of the ball. With this logic, very often applied during these types of "Shanahan, Haslett, To fire or not to Fire" discussions, once we fix one side, the other side will be old, ineffective and abysmal, and we are right back to square one. Being just a couple years away. Its a football team, and if a coach is worth his weight in whatever, he gets his players to perform or he doesn't. They all have the same cap, the same draft picks, and the same rules. Its the coaches that are different, and this coach can not keep up, and we will NEVER be a serious contender for anything as long as Mike Shanahan is here at the helm. Again, just my opinion, but I think its fairly valid to say a coach who hasn't done squat in the league as far as playoffs and sustained success is concerned other than the times he has a uber elite QB behind center just cannot get it done without that Uber talent. He has proven it time and time again, we were just so desperate to get rid of zorn that we all figured he would be an upgrade. Sure Seems like he isn't. I haven't seen much of anything different other than our youth and QB, still losing, but now with the worst defense in the league and a patchwork OLine that is overachieving due to a ultra mobile QB. And this whole thing about the mood and pride at Redskins park has changed in the last 3 years, ok.

I'll take winning over a positive attitude anyday, thanks. Until that happy sunshiny feeling translates into sustained success on the field, call me a non believer in anything Shanahan is selling.[/quote]

Not sure I ever said that. Difference with those D's is they can either bring pressure or create a lot of turnovers.

We're mostly on the same page, I don't think it will take 3 years to fix the D though.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;959449][B]No. The Skins put up one horrid game and folks want to throw the baby out with the bath water.[/B]

blowout losses happen. Considering this is the first one (with a rookie QB, mind you) its nothing to freak out about. If the Texans can ger blown out, with perhaps the most prolific offense in the leauge, then I don't think you can begrudge our team for one.[/quote]

Thiiiiis. And I mean we didn't even get blown out really. We lost by... what, 2 scores? It could've been worse. We could've been the week 7 Ravens.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Mattyk;959467]Not sure I ever said that. Difference with those D's is they can either bring pressure or create a lot of turnovers.

We're mostly on the same page, I don't think it will take 3 years to fix the D though.[/quote]

I think we have at least one more year of a struggling defense. Basically we have RAK and Carriker back, but both off of big injuries. We need time, money and talent and we are short on all three. I think unless we have some players really step up we are a little hamstrung this year and next.

We have some picks next draft and hopefully can find a few starters in that mix.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

Are people not seeing the difference between being in every game and being on the wrong end of an Eagles-like loss ([I]whichever season it was they jumped us for the most ugly, lopsided score I've seen[/I])?

I see progress with this squad and if we'd had our starting Safeties, Carriker and Rak, who knows where we'd be now.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;959522]Are people not seeing the difference between being in every game and being on the wrong end of an Eagles-like loss ([I]whichever season it was they jumped us for the most ugly, lopsided score I've seen[/I])?

I see progress with this squad and if we'd had our starting Safeties, Carriker and Rak, who knows where we'd be now.[/quote]

We were in a ton of games last year and the year before.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=The Goat;959568]We were in a ton of games last year and the year before.[/quote]

Out of 8 games, there has only been one we werent in. That didnt happen all that much the last few years.

Im still a believer that most teams went ultra conservative with us the last few years (or like the Giants last year, just assumed the win was guaranteed as long as they showed up and gave a half-ass effort). Most teams knew that as long as they werent giving up pick 6's to our defense, they would most likely win. We had no offense, so there was no reason to put in game plans to try and score 30 points against us and risk our defense scoring points. Its not that teams didnt want to score like crazy on us, they just knew that there was no reason to risk a play when you could just punt knowing that the ball would come back with no points scored by the Skins. Get a TD or two, then laugh as Rex/Beck/McNabb/Cambell ect. tried to get us back into the game.

I think we are getting teams best efforts and best game plans this year, and are staying right with them even with the terrible defense that we have.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=Skinzman;959571]Out of 8 games, there has only been one we werent in. That didnt happen all that much the last few years.

Im still a believer that most teams went ultra conservative with us the last few years (or like the Giants last year, just assumed the win was guaranteed as long as they showed up and gave a half-ass effort). Most teams knew that as long as they werent giving up pick 6's to our defense, they would most likely win. We had no offense, so there was no reason to put in game plans to try and score 30 points against us and risk our defense scoring points. Its not that teams didnt want to score like crazy on us, they just knew that there was no reason to risk a play when you could just punt knowing that the ball would come back with no points scored by the Skins. Get a TD or two, then laugh as Rex/Beck/McNabb/Cambell ect. tried to get us back into the game.

I think we are getting teams best efforts and best game plans this year, and are staying right with them even with the terrible defense that we have.[/quote]

Well said, and I agree with this.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

Bottom line is MS has to take the blame for the defense. He came in and changed it. It's been worse since he's taken over. And even with Carriker and Orakpo we were still at best an average defense. Changing to the 3-4 has not been a good move and the numbers back it up. RG3 buys him another year.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;959761]Bottom line is MS has to take the blame for the defense. He came in and changed it. It's been worse since he's taken over. And even with Carriker and Orakpo we were still at best an average defense. Changing to the 3-4 has not been a good move and the numbers back it up. RG3 buys him another year.[/quote]

Just curious what your take on the train of thought that offenses didn't run it up on us because they believed we couldn't come back - thus artificially raising our defensive stats.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

No but I wouldn't mind seeing Haslett replaced. Not at all.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;959761]Bottom line is MS has to take the blame for the defense. He came in and changed it. It's been worse since he's taken over. And even with Carriker and Orakpo we were still at best an average defense. Changing to the 3-4 has not been a good move and the numbers back it up. RG3 buys him another year.[/quote]

Mike Shanahan will live out his 5 year contract. He has Bruce Allen to back him up. Shanahan told Snyder from the beginning that this was a rebuilding program. He's in year 3 now and he and Bruce Allen are slowly but surely cleaning up the gigantic mess left behind by Vinny Cerratto. Switching to the 3-4 defense truly wasn't a bad move. The Redskins have given up tons of yardage this year, but have still managed to attain turnovers and turn them into points thanks in part to the defense. The Redskins were ranked 10th in defense after 11 games last season and 13th once the season was over. Granted, the defense did take 1,000 steps back this year. Getting rid of Atogwe and Landry hurt the Redskins more than anyone thought it would have. And let's not mention Brandon Meriweather's perpetual injury and Tanard Jackson's 1 year suspension.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;959777]Just curious what your take on the train of thought that offenses didn't run it up on us because they believed we couldn't come back - thus artificially raising our defensive stats.[/quote]

I think that's somewhat over analyzing it.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;959834]Mike Shanahan will live out his 5 year contract. He has Bruce Allen to back him up. Shanahan told Snyder from the beginning that this was a rebuilding program. He's in year 3 now and he and Bruce Allen are slowly but surely cleaning up the gigantic mess left behind by Vinny Cerratto. Switching to the 3-4 defense truly wasn't a bad move. The Redskins have given up tons of yardage this year, but have still managed to attain turnovers and turn them into points thanks in part to the defense. The Redskins were ranked 10th in defense after 11 games last season and 13th once the season was over. Granted, the defense did take 1,000 steps back this year. Getting rid of Atogwe and Landry hurt the Redskins more than anyone thought it would have. And let's not mention Brandon Meriweather's perpetual injury and Tanard Jackson's 1 year suspension.[/quote]

So tired of the Vinny argument. MS and Bruce have to be held accountable for trading away picks for McNabb, for trading away picks for Brown, changing the defense and low balling Rogers. Atogwe couldn't play anymore so it didn't matter if he left and they didn't want to mess around with LL cause of his injury. Then you bring in band aids..one has a drug problem and can't play. Then you over pay Morgan and he's not playing up to his pay check. IMO he gets one more year but he needs to make the playoffs next year. 4 years in a row of no post season play at 7 mil per year???? Who keeps their job in the NFL with that record??? NO ONE.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

^^^

honestly we just need some help on D and a better coach and we will be just fine.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

can't wait for the thread title ...

REDSKINS announce Jim Has'been'Lett Go!

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;959871]So tired of the Vinny argument. MS and Bruce have to be held accountable for trading away picks for McNabb, for trading away picks for Brown, changing the defense and low balling Rogers. Atogwe couldn't play anymore so it didn't matter if he left and they didn't want to mess around with LL cause of his injury. Then you bring in band aids..one has a drug problem and can't play. Then you over pay Morgan and he's not playing up to his pay check. IMO he gets one more year but he needs to make the playoffs next year. 4 years in a row of no post season play at 7 mil per year???? Who keeps their job in the NFL with that record??? NO ONE.[/quote]

Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;959884]Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB[/quote]

I vaguely recall you saying at the time that Carlos wanted out. Not sure if he'd have been productive had he stayed. Disgruntled employee situation.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

For a brief moment it seemed he might consider returning. But don't believe it was ever truly genuine. his situation wasn't as bad as Champ's, but like Champ he was very bitter about things and wanted out.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

in both cases, as much as i love portis, t'was a shame

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;959884]Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB[/quote]

Well they certainly pissed him off and Los had no desire to stay. I'm assuming because Hall got more $ than he was offered? Regardless... our best cover corner walked and had a career year in another uniform.

The Brown trade has been a mess. He can't stay on the field and Paul is a non factor... so far.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

Sure, but to your earlier post it wasn't Allen/Shanahan that pissed Los off. That bridge burned long before.

Anyhow, Redskins HC 2016....Raheem Morris. You think I'm joking

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;959898]Sure, but to your earlier post it wasn't Allen/Shanahan that pissed Los off. That bridge burned long before.

Anyhow, Redskins HC 2016....Raheem Morris. [B]You think I'm joking[/[/B]QUOTE]

Oh...ok. Well ....If all else fails...Blame it on Vinny!

More like I hope you're joking! You keep bringing up Morris. His team 100% quit on him last year. Why is he held in such high regard? He's never even been a coordinator in the NFL.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

it's a good question.. but i think the team was just BAD .. and they quit because of the caliber of players/ppl that are there

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

:doh:


Reading some of these posts and seeing that Raheem Could be our next HC in a few years, makes me happy I put up the Draft and Free Agent threads

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;959892]For a brief moment it seemed he might consider returning. But don't believe it was ever truly genuine. his situation wasn't as bad as Champ's, but like Champ he was very bitter about things and wanted out.[/quote]

Why was Champ so bitter? Not like we low balled him. Keep hearing some crap that he got caught cheating on his wife and she refused to stay in the area after the ordeal. True?

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;959915]Why was Champ so bitter? Not like we low balled him. Keep hearing some crap that he got caught cheating on his wife and she refused to stay in the area after the ordeal. True?[/quote]

That's part of the story.

Re: Should Mike Shanahan be fired?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;959901][QUOTE=SmootSmack;959898]Sure, but to your earlier post it wasn't Allen/Shanahan that pissed Los off. That bridge burned long before.

Anyhow, Redskins HC 2016....Raheem Morris. [B]You think I'm joking[/[/B]QUOTE]

Oh...ok. Well ....If all else fails...Blame it on Vinny!

More like I hope you're joking! You keep bringing up Morris. His team 100% quit on him last year. Why is he held in such high regard? He's never even been a coordinator in the NFL.[/quote]

Don't believe in second chances for coaches?