Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;308227]I feel like kicking those people's asses and saying "Okay, if you're going to heavan and I am going to hell, I'm going to kick the crap out of you so at least going to hell will have been worth it."[/QUOTE]

My general response to these types - if you're going to heaven, it's probably not a place I want to be.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

And, as for my earlier exigesis on religion and the foundation of my beliefs, I was really trying to point out that it is not "religion" per se that is evil. Also, those religions claiming to have "simple" answers to ageless questions are likely to be less than they purport to be.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;308221]Um yes you can when they kill innocent people in the name of God. Crusades, jihad, whatever you wanna call it, it is bullshit.

Although I respect those who apply the morals and virtues of religion I absolutely hate those who are blinded by it, and those who would KILL in the name of God because their religious leader tells them to.[/QUOTE]

Well that was kinda Angry's point. It is the fault of individuals and groups who pervert the message of God's love into a message of hate, not the original message of love. Just because some have perverted the message or used the power of religion to justify or accomplish their own selfish ends, that does not change the underlying truth of the original message.

I have not seen the movie that started this thread. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. It is clear that it is a depiction of a group that has truly perverted Christ's message of love. That, however, is a story as old as christianity itself.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=saden1;308020]And what brush might that be? I am wasn't talking about the people who practice religion, rather the whole notion of religion. There isn't a single religion without contradictions and that something I can't get past, especially since god is suppose to be omnipotent and divine. I can't prove or disprove the existence of god, but I can say religion is manure flavored ice-cream on pretty cone. It is highly illogical, contradictory, and breads fear. It is evil as it divides.[/quote]

In this case, the brush you appear to be using when you lump all religion and the practice of it together as being "evil", etc. To suggest Dr. Martin Luther King, and Jim Jones and what they believe are basically the same is quite a reach in ridicularity.
Hmmm....that would be the brush

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

As I said, I personally am not very religious, but it is kind of hard not to believe in Jesus' teachings (or Allah's, Buddha's, etc.). Basically, treat others as you would want others to treat you, do not judge others because it is not your place (i.e., "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"), and know that living such a life will reap rewards.

Even if there is no such thing as heaven, good people generally lead FAR happier lives than bad ones. There are a lot of "bad" people with money and power, but if you are such an ass, how many people are you going to have in your life who love you (as opposed to try to suck your blood)? I find that many a-holes lead very unhappy lives because they know what a-holes they are and so do others.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;308291]As I said, I personally am not very religious, but it is kind of hard not to believe in Jesus' teachings (or Allah's, Buddha's, etc.). Basically, treat others as you would want others to treat you, do not judge others because it is not your place (i.e., "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"), and know that living such a life will reap rewards.

Even if there is no such thing as heaven, good people generally lead FAR happier lives than bad ones. There are a lot of "bad" people with money and power, but if you are such an ass, how many people are you going to have in your life who love you (as opposed to try to suck your blood)? I find that many a-holes lead very unhappy lives because they know what a-holes they are and so do others.[/quote]

Nicely done SGG.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;308256]In this case, the brush you appear to be using when you lump all religion and the practice of it together as being "evil", etc. To suggest Dr. Martin Luther King, and Jim Jones and what they believe are basically the same is quite a reach in ridicularity.
Hmmm....that would be the brush[/QUOTE]

What makes you think Christianity [URL="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus21.htm"]is less bizarre[/URL] than Jim's cult? I particularly find passages concerning salves ironic seeing has how MLK's ancestors were enslaved.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=saden1;308353]What makes you think Christianity [URL="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus21.htm"]is less bizarre[/URL] than Jim's cult? I particularly find passages concerning salves ironic seeing has how MLK's ancestors were enslaved.[/QUOTE]

C'mon Saden - you're smarter than that. One chapter of a 1000 plus page book written (at least) over 2000 years ago as an example of the underlying religion's "bizarreness"? And then to equate this same passage as being an equivalent basis as a suicide cult? Are you just being purposely obtuse? or do you really believe this is a legitimate comparison of the two religions?

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;308366]C'mon Saden - you're smarter than that. One chapter of a 1000 plus page book written (at least) over 2000 years ago as an example of the underlying religion's "bizarreness"? And then to equate this same passage as being an equivalent basis as a suicide cult? Are you just being purposely obtuse? or do you really believe this is a legitimate comparison of the two religions?[/QUOTE]

It should also be noted that the coming of Jesus wiped away the Old Testament way of life and expectations of us that God had/has. The Old Testament was the word of God as it pertained to Pre-Savior Jews (and also foretold of everything that occurred in the New Testament). During his life, Jesus preached love. Not only for fellow believers, but also of non-believers. Love (& grace) conquers all.

Basically, God knew that we could never live up to His expectations. Because of our failure He sent Jesus to this earth to live a perfect life and die in our place.

I should also say that in order to be a Christian, all that is required of you is to have a solid faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You don't need to go to Jesus Camp, save 10 million lost souls, pledge $50k to a TV preacher, or live an Old Testament lifestyle. It's what is in your heart that truly determines your spiritual fate. Not me, not the Pentecostals, not any preacher, and certainly not the missionaries on the streets can determine this.

God does not command you to do anything you do not wish. We are each given our own free will here on Earth.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=MColeman;308371]It should also be noted that the coming of Jesus wiped away the Old Testament way of life and expectations of us that God had/has. The Old Testament was the word of God as it pertained to Pre-Savior Jews (and also foretold of everything that occurred in the New Testament). During his life, Jesus preached love. Not only for fellow believers, but also of non-believers. Love (& grace) conquers all.

Basically, God knew that we could never live up to His expectations. Because of our failure He sent Jesus to this earth to live a perfect life and die in our place.

[B] I should also say that in order to be a Christian, all that is required of you is to have a solid faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You don't need to go to Jesus Camp, save 10 million lost souls, pledge $50k to a TV preacher, or live an Old Testament lifestyle. It's what is in your heart that truly determines your spiritual fate. Not me, not the Pentecostals, not any preacher, and certainly not the missionaries on the streets can determine this. [/B]

God does not command you to do anything you do not wish. We are each given our own free will here on Earth.[/quote]

Good point, and welcome to the board.

Also if you havent noticed, we are a Redskins forum too, if you are into that kinda stuff lol.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=MColeman;308371]It should also be noted that the coming of Jesus wiped away the Old Testament way of life and expectations of us that God had/has. The Old Testament was the word of God as it pertained to Pre-Savior Jews (and also foretold of everything that occurred in the New Testament). During his life, Jesus preached love. Not only for fellow believers, but also of non-believers. Love (& grace) conquers all.

Basically, God knew that we could never live up to His expectations. Because of our failure He sent Jesus to this earth to live a perfect life and die in our place.

I should also say that in order to be a Christian, all that is required of you is to have a solid faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. You don't need to go to Jesus Camp, save 10 million lost souls, pledge $50k to a TV preacher, or live an Old Testament lifestyle. It's what is in your heart that truly determines your spiritual fate. Not me, not the Pentecostals, not any preacher, and certainly not the missionaries on the streets can determine this.

God does not command you to do anything you do not wish. We are each given our own free will here on Earth.[/QUOTE]

Very nice first post. And let me just add it is an honor to have Monte Coleman join us on this message board. One of the all time greatest players in Redskins history. And one of those cases where you can say he was a "great player, but even better person"

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=hooskins;308221]Um yes you can when they kill innocent people in the name of God. Crusades, jihad, whatever you wanna call it, it is bullshit.



They claim to do it is His name, but it may not be His will. We still have choice, because He loves us. What we decide to do will be judged by Him. I am not talking about it anymore. If you want answers, then talk to Him. I am sure you know where to find a Bible, and how to pray. I will be praying for you. Out of Love, not hate. Peace not war!

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

Coming from a Jewish background I bristle when people assert that Christianity is the one true religion because the clear implication is that my dead relatives are burning in hell. I appreciate it much more when people say that Christianity works for them, but that they respect that other religious faiths - or even having no religion at all - may work equally well for other people.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;308457]Coming from a Jewish background I bristle when people assert that Christianity is the one true religion because the clear implication is that my dead relatives are burning in hell. I appreciate it much more when people say that Christianity works for them, but that they respect that other religious faiths - or even having no religion at all - may work equally well for other people.[/QUOTE]

Jesus was nothing if not a good jew. In my opinion, Christianity doesn't "replace" judaism but rather is a culmination of its teachings. W/o understanding, believing and accepting the old testament teachings, christianity is a religion out of context. That includes (IMHO) the teachings of tolerance and acceptance.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;308475]Jesus was nothing if not a good jew. In my opinion, Christianity doesn't "replace" judaism but rather is a culmination of its teachings. W/o understanding, believing and accepting the old testament teachings, christianity is a religion out of context. That includes (IMHO) the teachings of tolerance and acceptance.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you mean? Christianity is a culmination of Jewish teachings for who? For Christians? Certainly not for Jewish people, who reject the new testament. A culmination is believed to be superior to what came before it (the word literally means to reach the highest point) so if I was a little more fanatical I might find what you just said offensive. I don't think you meant it to be, but culmination was a poor word choice imo. How about Christianity builds off of Jewish teachings while going in a new direction?

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[QUOTE=djnemo65;308481]I'm not sure what you mean? Christianity is a culmination of Jewish teachings for who? For Christians? Certainly not for Jewish people, who reject the new testament. A culmination is believed to be superior to what came before it (the word literally means to reach the highest point) so if I was a little more fanatical I might find what you just said offensive. I don't think you meant it to be, but culmination was a poor word choice imo. How about Christianity builds off of Jewish teachings while going in a new direction?[/QUOTE]

Fair enough - for Christians. And no, it was not meant to be offensive. With that said, it is the [I]Christian[/I] belief that Christ was the culmination of the "old covenant" and that, rather than a "new direction", the "new covenant" was a continuation of those same old covenant promises through the Christ's death and resurrection.

Given the underlying tension between the two faiths (The Judaic messiah has yet to come v. The Judaic messiah has come), the Christian and Jewish faiths will always on some level be at odds and each side has to use care in communicating with each other - particularly Christians when speaking of the Jewish faith.

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[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;308483]Fair enough - for Christians. And no, it was not meant to be offensive. With that said, it is the [I]Christian[/I] belief that Christ was the culmination of the "old covenant" and that, rather than a "new direction", the "new covenant" was a continuation of those same old covenant promises through the Christ's death and resurrection.

Given the underlying tension between the two faiths (The Judaic messiah has yet to come v. The Judaic messiah has come), the Christian and Jewish faiths will always on some level be at odds and each side has to use care in communicating with each other - particularly Christians when speaking of the Jewish faith.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and I wasn't offended. Thanks for being understanding though.

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[quote=saden1;308353]What makes you think Christianity [URL="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/exodus/exodus21.htm"]is less bizarre[/URL] than Jim's cult? I particularly find passages concerning salves ironic seeing has how MLK's ancestors were enslaved.[/quote]

Actually, I find your post rather.........bizarre.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

In answering the original post about the movie and this group I'm going to dip out of this thread quoting Jesus quoting Isaiah in how I "believe" Jesus would respond to that group and what they are teaching each other and those children. Matthew 15: 7-9

[COLOR="Red"][quote]Matthew 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e]honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”[/quote][/COLOR]

peace and prayers guys!
Jesus, not just for Sundays Anymore!

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[QUOTE=Daseal;308218] I'm a curious person by nature and I'm curious as to how you can completely devote yourself to something you've never seen, felt, or have anything except for an ancient book that's not even 1st or 2nd hand stories.[/QUOTE]

Daseal,

I know you said you were done with this thread and I realize it has taken on a life of its own, but I wanted to address this point - just because of your curiosity.

Part of the Christian experience, and I'm certain this is true most other religions, is the fact that, through study of and meditation on the writings of the "ancient book", you [I]can[/I] feel and see God - just not with your fingers and eyes. It's as I said in one of my long posts, if you condition your acceptance of the infinite on the abiltiy to prove its existence through finite, tangible experience then it simply can't be done. It's like trying to explain color to a person who has been blind all their life - if they refuse to believe that color exists unless they can prove its existence through their working senses, it just can't be done.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=Sammy Baugh Fan;308508]In answering the original post about the movie and this group I'm going to dip out of this thread quoting Jesus quoting Isaiah in how I "believe" Jesus would respond to that group and what they are teaching each other and those children. Matthew 15: 7-9

[COLOR="Red"][/COLOR]

peace and prayers guys!
Jesus, not just for Sundays Anymore![/QUOTE]

Nice. Beautiful quote.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

Speaking of the whole "one TRUE God" concept, [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/09/romney.sharpton.ap/index.html"]these[/URL] remarks by Al Sharpton are interesting. Champion of diversity my ass. He sounds more like Muqtada al Sadr

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

I read things like that, and I just have to shake my head in disgust.
The "rev" Al, and his type are, who, and what, they are.
His time with his maker is coming..........

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[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;308366]C'mon Saden - you're smarter than that. One chapter of a 1000 plus page book written (at least) over 2000 years ago as an example of the underlying religion's "bizarreness"? And then to equate this same passage as being an equivalent basis as a suicide cult? Are you just being purposely obtuse? or do you really believe this is a legitimate comparison of the two religions?[/QUOTE]

I'm not being facetious. I simply don't think Christianity should get a pass, be it one passage or the whole book (i.e.Ezekiel). You can't simply ignore the Old Testament and pretend it is invalid. And while the New Testament is much tamer than the Old Testament, it is still contains inconsistencies (world is still 6000 years old).

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[QUOTE=saden1;308608]I'm not being facetious. I simply don't think Christianity should get a pass, be it one passage or the whole book (i.e.Ezekiel). You can't simply ignore the Old Testament and pretend it is invalid. And while the New Testament is much tamer than the Old Testament, it is still contains inconsistencies (world is still 6000 years old).[/QUOTE]

Who is saying that we should ignore the old testament? As I stated Christianity is founded in the teachings of Judaism. Jesus was a literate jew who could (and did according to the NT) quote judaic scripture.

People have devoted lifetimes to understanding the message and meaning particular books of the Bible (I am sure the same can be said of the Koran, Talmud and other sacred books). I have, as we speak, a 5000 page tome that gives a cursory background, using comparitive language translations from the original greek and hebrew of both OT and NT. Taking any book, passage or quote from the bible (old or new) without an understanding of who wrote it, why it was written, whether it's a poetic, prophetic or historical book/chapter/verse will, of course, lead to inconsistencies. Can many verses, statements, stories be taken out of context and not lose their meaning? Of course (the 10 Commandments and the beatitudes jump to mind). Does that mean all must be? Of course not. Even those that CAN be taken out of context gain a greater depth of meaning when their context is understood.

Again, it seems you want thousands of years of wisdom on the meaning of life wrapped up neatly in a non contradictory, self explanatory, easy bake oven answer and it just ain't gonna happen - Not in Christianity, not in islam, not in judaism nor in any other religion that is worth study or devotion.

When you find a religion with easy answers to all life's problems - well, you just entered Jesus Camp.

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As for the chapter from Exodus you quoted earlier, while I haven't gone through all of it in detail, much of it strikes me as being in the same manner of Hammurabi's code (the original eye for an eye) which was a way to limit damages b/c prior to that it was "your family for my eye". It was probably a codification of general punishments acceptable at the time created to ensure equal treatment under the law.

Does that mean it is word for word applicable today? Of course not. Does it, when its context, is understood show a beginning of where the commandment "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" originated? Maybe. Maybe in the context of humanity's journey the quoted rules represented a great and radical leap forward from the mores of the day. Maybe it IS the beginning of the concept of equal treatment under the law.

These all are questions that may be correct or may not, but only an understanding of the context will get you anywhere close to an understanding of how this one chapter fits into a few millenia of articulated wisdom.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=saden1;308608]I'm not being facetious. I simply don't think Christianity should get a pass, be it one passage or the whole book (i.e.Ezekiel). You can't simply ignore the Old Testament and pretend it is invalid. And while the New Testament is much tamer than the Old Testament, it is still contains inconsistencies (world is still 6000 years old).[/quote]Of course, if God in fact did create the universe, then any "hard" evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old isn't so hard anymore, now is it?

Again, this boils down to what Joe Redskin has been saying all along, that it's in many ways irresponsible and foolish to try to explain the infinate in terms of tangibility.

Down the road, we may quite possibly come to realize the true origin of all living things, attributable to something that isn't infinite. But at the very least, its certain that we are incapable in the present of such knowledge.

I actually think trusting incomplete scientific explination based on assumption and groupthink is just as if not more irresponsible than someone who believes blindly in religion (i.e. Jesus Campers).

That of course is discussion for another day and thread.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

You know, all those people have dedicated countless of hours to studying the bible but we are no more closer to understanding god than people in the 10th century. Christianity has no moral high-ground compared to other religions just because it is older.

In the past there weren't any debates regarding religion because you would've been executed on the spot if you questioned the existence of god or "blasphemed." The fact that we have the ability to question and doubt is a testament to a move away from religion.

p.s. Once you overcome your fear of going to hell it's pretty easy to be objective in matters concerning religion and see it for what it is. You just have to overcome that conditioning you went through as a child first.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;308668]Of course, if God in fact did create the universe, then any "hard" evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old isn't so hard anymore, now is it?[/QUOTE]

My little brain hurts from trying to comprehend what you're trying to say. Please elaborate.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;308668]Again, this boils down to what Joe Redskin has been saying all along, that it's in many ways irresponsible and foolish to try to explain the infinate in terms of tangibility.[/QUOTE]

Basically, you just have to have faith and take it as it is.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;308668]I actually think trusting incomplete scientific explanation based on assumption and groupthink is just as if not more irresponsible than someone who believes blindly in religion (i.e. Jesus Campers).[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but you can't equate science and faith. Science deals in theories and a set of principles aimed at proving or disproving a theory. Observable and measurable tests are conducted. We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]You know, all those people have dedicated countless of hours to studying the bible but [B]we are no more closer [/B]to understanding god than people in the 10th century. [/QUOTE]

Who is this "we" of whom you speak? I have spent significant hours and time studying the bible, texts analyzing the bible (from St. Augustine's time to present), and learning from others who have spent greater time doing so . For myself, reading and meditating on both the bible texts, its commentators, and the teachings of others has given me (and I would assert others who spent time analyzing it), a deeper, richer understanding of God and his plan for us. If the "we" you refer to are those who have not devoted time to the study of God and the collection of these texts and ancient wisdom, you are probably right. But then, those who have only studied arithmetic are likely not to be able to understand much about quantum physics, are they?

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]Christianity has no moral high-ground compared to other religions just because it is older. [/QUOTE]

I, for one, am certainly not claiming a "moral high ground" b/c of Chrisitanity's age (Hell, if that were true, let's all go perform some human sacrifices, 'cause I think religions based on that have been around much longer than the relatively new religion of Christianity). Rather, b/c of its rich history, I have only asserted that Christianity provides "simple and elegant" guidance to those seeking the answers to humanity's eternal questions. The key of course, is that you must seek these answers - not just pose questions and muse on possibilities. Further, it is likely that other "ancient" religions have similar histories, which, if they speak to you, may provide similar guidance.

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]In the past there weren't any debates regarding religion because you would've been executed on the spot if you questioned the existence of god or "blasphemed." The fact that we have the ability to question and doubt is a testament to a move away from religion. [/QUOTE]

This statement is so loaded with inaccuracy and naivete that it is offensive. "In the past", as now, and as elegantly pointed out by SBF's earlier quote, Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, and Buddhism) have been perverted by some to serve the own ends. A common occurrence was for individuals or groups within "established" religions to use there spiritual authority to gain temporal power and then to use that power for their own ends. Certainly, during the Middle Ages in Europe, the spiritual authority and temporal power of the Roman Catholic church was used for very "un-Christianlike" purposes by certain groups and individuals.

Secular powers and individuals have historically used certain themes or aspects of Christianity (and other religions) for their own ends. This has and will always be true b/c (1) Spiritual authority can easily be exploited for personal gain; and (2) people are always looking for simple answers so that they don't have to do the work. (i.e. Jesus Camp). [As an aside, find and read the short story [I]The Grand Inquisitor[/I] it is by a Russian author - you'll like it, it's all about how the Catholic church is brainwashing its flock].

The key of course is that this is all done through the perversion of the religion's (in the European Middle Ages, Christianity's) underlying "set of beliefs". The perversion of a message does not render the underlying message meaningless - it just means we must work carefully to seek the actual message and not its perversion.

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]The fact that we have the ability to question and doubt is a testament to a move away from religion. [/QUOTE]

This is just flat out stupid. Sorry I am trying to retain a civil tone but you insist on making statements that belie an underlying ignorance of religion in general, the history of Christianity and the current state of the more established Christian sects (Roman Catholicism, Presbyternism, Methodism, Episcalinism, etc.).

As a whole Christianity, (again, I will assume it is true for other religions as well), has constantly questioned itself, the existence of God, Christ's relationship with him, and the very nature of Christ himself. As others have pointed out, several counsels were held to discuss and debate the nature of God and, through these contentious counsels, an underlying "set of beliefs" was established. Many didn't agree with the tenets that were established choose not to adopt unified Christianity. Again, in the renessaince and reformation people questioned debated the nature of Christianity's tenets. During all these times, did some people pervert the message of various factions within the church and exploit it for there own ends? Yup. Does that mean the underlying "set of beliefs" concerning Christianity seeks to quash question and debate as to the meaning of life, God's existence and God's place within it? Nope - In fact, I suggest to you that is exactly what Christianity (and any other religion worth devotion and study) tries to promote. The universe is a big place, we can only begin to understand it if we question and seek answers every day.

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]p.s. Once you overcome your fear of going to hell it's pretty easy to be objective in matters concerning religion and see it for what it is. You just have to overcome that conditioning you went through as a child first.[/QUOTE]

Wow - were you beaten as a child? What kind of conditioning are you imparting to the rest of us? Objectivity concerning religion can be difficult to obtain for any number of reasons. Yes, preconceived notions must always be examined and questioned. However, true Christian upbringing doesn't focus on hellfire and brimstone but on any number of principles provided by religion that teach love, respect, self-sacrifice, self-discipline and introspection.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=saden1;309111]I'm sorry but you can't equate science and faith. Science deals in theories and a set of principles aimed at proving or disproving a theory. Observable and measurable tests are conducted. We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.[/QUOTE]

First let me say this, faith and science are, fundementally, not at odds. In fact, fundamentally they are similar, each seeks answers to questions. In fact, the thing that initially sparked my interest into the religion I finally joined, after a lenghty period of atheism, was a sign that said "Christ came to take away our sins, not our minds".

As for science, yup, advancements have occurred. But, for all our advancements, there are many things accepted by faith within the scientific community (often euphamisticly termed "assumptions") which in turn form the basis for or fill in the gaps of scientific theories.

The significant difference between science and religion is that religion, faith, and spirituality seek answers to questions that have no timeless "right" answer and they, inevitably, can only provide guidance in how to question and search for answers applicable to us individually, on daily terms and in our daily lives.

When science comes up with the answer to how we should best love our enemy, let me know.

[QUOTE=saden1;309111]We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.[/QUOTE]

It is clear that [I]you[/I] cannot say the same b/c it is fairly apparent that you haven't done much in the way of examining "the state of faith" through the ages. As one who has as least done some examination of the matter, I would suggest to you that it is, in most of the established religions, significantly different than where it was even four or five hundred years ago.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

And to finish this thread and make belivers out of you all...

[IMG]http://decalhaven.com/catalog/images/25326.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=saden1;309110]p.s. Once you overcome your fear of going to hell it's pretty easy to be objective in matters concerning religion and see it for what it is. You just have to overcome that conditioning you went through as a child first.[/QUOTE]

That sounds very paternalistic to me ("if we only were so enlightened and not blinded by our fear we would see the world in an objective manner"). Again, I'm not religious, but I don't buy the argument that people are religious purely out of fear. You're saying that literally billions of people from all walks of life and who belong to thousands of different religious groups are religious for the same exact reason. That is not only paternalistic, but is in incredibly simplistic.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=saden1;309111]My little brain hurts from trying to comprehend what you're trying to say. Please elaborate.[/quote]Essentially, it is to say that all evidence of the age of the world, I.E. fossil, radiometric dating, and all other types, rely on an assumption that the universe was not intelligently created. For if it was, and bear with me, there are an infinate number of possible explinations to how that stuff came to be. Because of the infinate number of possibilities, that stuff has little meaning in terms of evidence.

It's reasonable to believe that the universe wasn't intelligently created, IMO, but only under the pretense that we do not have the answers currently. Science may very well make many more advances, but probably will never decide for or against faith. In fact, thats what faith is: the belief in the less than certain (Theory of Evolution for example). If it were cut and dry and clear, everybody would do it.

C'mon, we know from you're previous posts that you are way smarter than this. Don't let your arrogance and pride let your argument get out of hand.

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;310366]Essentially, it is to say that all evidence of the age of the world, I.E. fossil, radiometric dating, and all other types, rely on an assumption that the universe was not intelligently created. For if it was, and bear with me, there are an infinate number of possible explinations to how that stuff came to be. Because of the infinate number of possibilities, that stuff has little meaning in terms of evidence.

It's reasonable to believe that the universe wasn't intelligently created, IMO, but only under the pretense that we do not have the answers currently. Science may very well make many more advances, but probably will never decide for or against faith. In fact, thats what faith is: the belief in the less than certain (Theory of Evolution for example). If it were cut and dry and clear, everybody would do it.

C'mon, we know from you're previous posts that you are way smarter than this. Don't let your arrogance and pride let your argument get out of hand.[/QUOTE]


Look, as I have said before there may very well be an all powerful entity that created us, the universe, and everything else we don't know about. Having said that I call b.s. on the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah (all 3 are based on each other). I call b.s. on Jesus, Mohamed, and Moses. I call b.s. on all the the far fetched stories. I call b.s. on the contradictions, lack of civility and humanism. I call b.s. on the fact that all of these holy men were born and raised in the middle east. Where are the Chinese born prophets? How about the fact that so many prophet are related? It feels like a family business.

This is what I have come to the conclusion of after much thought and struggle. It's not popular with believers but that's alright. This is about me what I believe.

p.s. I want to know who in here has no fear of hell? Fear of hell and the desire to go to heaven are integral part of most religion. After all you can't chill with Jesus/God and drink Pina Colada if you aren't in heaven.

p.p.s. We may disagree but I got nothing but love for you lot.

-Peace

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

You're calling a lot of b.s tonight aren't you Saden?

Is this going to become like the "F..." threads? Now we'll have the "I Call B.S. On..."

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=saden1;310441]Look, as I have said before there may very well be an all powerful entity that created us, the universe, and everything else we don't know about. Having said that I call b.s. on the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah (all 3 are based on each other). I call b.s. on Jesus, Mohamed, and Moses. I call b.s. on all the the far fetched stories. I call b.s. on the contradictions, lack of civility and humanism. I call b.s. on the fact that all of these holy men were born and raised in the middle east. Where are the Chinese born prophets? How about the fact that so many prophet are related? It feels like a family business.

This is what I have come to the conclusion of after much thought and struggle. It's not popular with believers but that's alright.

p.s. I want to know who in here has no fear of hell? Fear of hell and the desire to go to heaven are integral part of most religion. After all you can't chill with Jesus/God and drink Pina Colada if you aren't in heaven.

p.p.s. We may disagree but I got nothing but love for you lot.

-Peace[/quote]

I am probably going to regret this, but I feel compelled to ask; what contradictions?

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;310447]I am probably going to regret this, but I feel compelled to ask; what contradictions?[/QUOTE]


[url=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html]A List Of Biblical Contradictions[/url]

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;310443]You're calling a lot of b.s tonight aren't you Saden?

Is this going to become like the "F..." threads? Now we'll have the "I Call B.S. On..."[/QUOTE]


I don't know, I call it how I see it?

Re: Jesus Camp:
 

[quote=saden1;310451][URL="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html"]A List Of Biblical Contradictions[/URL][/quote]

I am not going to argue this point with you, but here is some food for thought. If you take bits and pieces of any manuscript and pull them out of context you will have a much different picture than the one that is actually being presented in the writing. In all of those references you need to read the whole passage in order to understand what is actually being said. The only way to understand the Bible in it's entirety is to read the whole thing yourself. I am confident that if you were to read it all for yourself, you would have a much different point of view. I am not saying that you should, and I am not going to stop talking to you if you don't.

I do not believe in trying force what I believe to be true down other peoples throat, nor do I wish to debate with you on this topic. I am just trying to provide a little bit of what I believe to be insight on the matter. Have a nice evening.