[QUOTE=That Guy]he's not why they're winning... ramsey put up as many points as he did this week, so did portis brunell and cooley...[/QUOTE]

He's not the reason their winning just as much as Ramsey isn't the reason we lost right? Yeah, O.K.

[QUOTE=SUNRA] Your record says who your are.[/QUOTE]

Leftwitch was 5-9 as a starter last year. Ramsey was 4-7. Leftwitch is 2-0 this year, and Ramsey is 0-0. I really dont understand how Leftwitch is so much better in that respect.

the skins were 7-0 to NY after ramsey entered, that's not a very fair comparision, if you told leftwich he needed 14 points in one half, he would of put up 7... ;)

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Leftwitch was 5-9 as a starter last year. Ramsey was 4-7. Leftwitch is 2-0 this year, and Ramsey is 0-0. I really dont understand how Leftwitch is so much better in that respect.[/QUOTE]

I think you just made my point. Leftwich is 2-0 as a Jacksonville QB this year. Ramsey is 0-0 as a 2# QB who has lost his starting position to a QB who lost his job to Leftwich. Now how did that happen? Oh because Ramsey needed a veteran to teach him the ropes while Leftwich, Harrington and Brady are 2-0.

Leftwich is a local kid and I'm rooting for him to do well but I think money played as big a factor as any in the Jags going with Leftwich and letting Brunell go. They're cost-cutting down in Jacksonville, that's a big reason why Brackens and Douglass are gone as well. Saving money and going with youth.

True, Leftwich led a drive that ended in a spectacular catch by Wilford in the back of the endzone. Sucks for Ramsey that Gardner couldn't catch the ball in the endzone on Sunday.

leftwich also led a whole lot of punting drives... brunell got injured and they decided to go young sooner rather than later, brunell's play until that point was fine...

but you put way too much importance on having a winning team and its correlation with having a good QB...

jamal went 10-6 last year, boller has a better record as a starter than leftwich overall (without having a vet to learn from), so i guess boller is a better QB than brad johnson this year, and obviously better than leftwich overall...

theory doesn't hold up very well...

Hey, I've got an idea...

Lets draft a QB in the first round, watch him play with more guts and toughness than any QB in the league other than Favre as he gets MASHED behind his line, still manage to throw more TDs than picks in his rookie year.

THEN... lets build him up, talk about his toughness and his rifle arm and being QB of the future.

THEN.. We should bring in a vet and turn our backs on the kid.

THEN.. We should write him off and wipe our feet on him on the strength of a pre-season in a nerw scheme were he is dealing with the fact that a vet has been brought in and 3 INTs thrown whilst chasing the game.

Oh, I'm sorry. Some of you have already done all of this, haven't you?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

We destroyed Gus like this. Brad had a pro-bowl campaign and takes us to the play-offs and is a hero. Has a rocky contract season and people hate him.

What does he do? Oh, he only helped his team win the superbowl.

TIME SOME PEOPLE GOT OUT OF THEIR PRAMS AND GREW UP.

Give Ramsey a chance, Peyton Manning and Favre didn't set the league on fire in the begining.

:madani:

I totally agree dieselhog, we haven't even given Ramsey a fair shake here, yet some people are writing him off and ready to ship him out.

Just doesn't make much sense to me.

[QUOTE=dieselhog]We destroyed Gus like this.[/QUOTE]

LOL LOL LOL

Sorry, but I could not help laughing - I recall a headbutt being the turning point in Gus' career. I often wondered if he did permanent brain damage that day. He never had any consistency with the Redskins or since. The fans did not make him smash his head into that wall and become the laughingstock of the NFL. Neither did the coaches. The idea that somehow the fans permanently damaged his psyche is pure silliness.

And as far as Brad Johnson - how do you see that in any way the same as Ramsey? He was proven before he got here, did a credible job here, and Dan Snyder, in one of his worst blunders, got rid of him for Eddie George. Do you really think the fans wanted that???!!!!??? Maybe you werte out of town at the time, but that is certainly not the sentiment I heard.

Hogskin, a lot of people were ready to ship Brad out after his somewhat disappointing 2000 season. I wouldn't say he was 'ran out of town', but there were definitely people that weren't sad to see him go.

I think the basic point dieselhog is trying to make is how quickly the fans turn on players, especially our QB's it seems. Ramsey was the apple of the fans' eye in his rookie season, especially after his flash of brilliance against the Titans. Now it seems that some people don't even want to give him the chance to develop, they've seen enough after 16 careers starts to conclude that he's not going to become a quality NFL starter.

I think with our ridiculously high turnover at QB over the years, we as fans have become used to a new face in there every year and we're not used to what it's like to commit to one guy through thick and thin to let him develop. Personally I really hope we will have enough patience with Ramsey, both as fans and as an organization.

Not every QB is going to be a Tom Brady, a guy that has instant success. More often than not, a star QB takes 3-4 seasons to start to hit their stride. Guys like Aikman, Elway, Favre, etc., all had rough rides early in their careers, yet the payoff of letting them struggle and develop was huge needless to say.

Right now a lot of people have very unrealistic expectations of him. There's only one way Ramsey is going to improve, and that's to play. He's going to struggle along the way, but hopefully the payoff will be worth it. Let's give the kid a chance, that's all I'm saying.

[QUOTE=smootsmack]Leftwich is a local kid and I'm rooting for him to do well but I think money played as big a factor as any in the Jags going with Leftwich and letting Brunell go. They're cost-cutting down in Jacksonville, that's a big reason why Brackens and Douglass are gone as well. Saving money and going with youth.

True, Leftwich led a drive that ended in a spectacular catch by Wilford in the back of the endzone. Sucks for Ramsey that Gardner couldn't catch the ball in the endzone on Sunday.[/QUOTE

Leftwich is not only from D.C., but he played for my neighborhood high school H.D. Woodson so I'm definintely pulling for him.

Johnson was given a hrd time in his second season.

It wasn't just about Snyder, he said he was relieved to get out of DC for 'many reasons.'

This team is ALWAYS too quick to make heroes and then villains out of QBs.

Gus was no world beater but the point was that he was treated like one too early, one pro-bowl season does not make a HOF career but expectations became unrealistic from a lot of people and he was never going to live up to that.

He has proven, esp at Denver and Minnesota, that he is a great back-up who can perform very well in those circumstances, just not a week-to-week dependable player.

But yes, the 7-7 with the Ginats was an AWFUL game and Gus headbutting the wall was beyond stupid.

Norv had a classic quote though "I never thought to tell him not to headbut a wall.." :laughing-

Matty,

As far as fans here turning on players, I think it is just the opposite. In most cities, the bulk of the fan base would have been upset (and even BOOED) Gardner (many drops since he has been here) and Samuels (2 years of bad play and seemingly lethargic attitude). But here, they do not get booed (THANKFULLY - our players should NEVER get booed at home), and most fans ruffle their feathers if you even suggest a trade of these guys. Now as far as QB's - the leader of the offense and usually the team, sure, anywhere you go, folks are a bit quick to judge them. Just like the head coach, fans see this guy responsible for the success or failure of the team, and everyone wants to win.

Now, where Ramsey is concerned, I really can not see how anyone would say it is quick. If it was just losing vs. winning, or too many interceptions, then you would have a point. But that is not what I and others are talking about. It is serious problems with fundamentals that he has shown absolutely no progress on, in over 2 calendar years. This does not at all correlate to the great QB's that have been mentioned from other teams, who got off to a slow start. This correlates more to Scott Secules or that guy at SF (forget his name) a few years ago with the bazooka arm.

But I AM with you on one facet of the discussion. If Brunell is not able to start, I agree Ramsey SHOULD start. And I hope like hell he has a miraculous turnaround, and that he becomes the next Brett Favre. I don't play extreme longshots, but if I am forced to play this one, I still pull for the big win.

[QUOTE=dieselhog]Hey, I've got an idea...

Lets draft a QB in the first round, watch him play with more guts and toughness than any QB in the league other than Favre as he gets MASHED behind his line, still manage to throw more TDs than picks in his rookie year.

THEN... lets build him up, talk about his toughness and his rifle arm and being QB of the future.

THEN.. We should bring in a vet and turn our backs on the kid.

THEN.. We should write him off and wipe our feet on him on the strength of a pre-season in a nerw scheme were he is dealing with the fact that a vet has been brought in and 3 INTs thrown whilst chasing the game.

Oh, I'm sorry. Some of you have already done all of this, haven't you?

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

We destroyed Gus like this. Brad had a pro-bowl campaign and takes us to the play-offs and is a hero. Has a rocky contract season and people hate him.

What does he do? Oh, he only helped his team win the superbowl.

TIME SOME PEOPLE GOT OUT OF THEIR PRAMS AND GREW UP.

Give Ramsey a chance, Peyton Manning and Favre didn't set the league on fire in the begining.

:madani:[/QUOTE]

It is funny how you get mad when people put down the players you like.
Do you show this same anger when people want a player like Rod Gardner shipped out? Another player that is strugling (like Ramsey) who in the ENTIRE season of 2002 showed as our #1 receiver he can be an NFL WR, with 71 catches for 1006 yards and a 14.2 average per catch. He did this over an entire season.
Not like Ramsey who shows good and bad in tiny spurts.
But you are willing get on your high horse and chastise people for stating their opinions on Ramsey on an opinion message board? Everyone's favorite players get put down in this forum.
This is the kind of thing I was talking about the Ramsey fans. God forbid any one put down the toughest , incredible, future hall of fame, future 5 time super bowl winner, the Qb with the most potential since Jeff George.
LOL
You guys talk about him like he has already proved something in this league.
I am one those that wants Ramsey to suceed and be our #1. But he has not done that yet. I am just tired of the rabid Ramsey fans talking about Ramsey like we owe him something. He has put his health and body on the line just like any Redskin. He gets paid millions to play football. We do not owe him anything.

[QUOTE=Defensewins]I am one those that wants Ramsey to suceed and be our #1. But he has not done that yet. I am just tired of the rabid Ramsey fans talking about Ramsey like we owe him something. He has put his health and body on the line just like any Redskin. He gets paid millions to play football. We do not owe him anything.[/QUOTE]

DW, I agree with your entire post. The only thing I would add (and I'm sure you intended this to be understood in your post):

We DO owe Ramsey one thing - every Redskin fan owes him this. Any time he goes onto the field as our QB, we owe him our full support. We cheer our lungs out for him and hope he plays a spectacular game. And if he DOES fail miserable, we DO NOT BOO!!

But like you indicated, if he continues to make zero progress on his problems with fundamentals, we have EVERY RIGHT to point it out as fans. We all want every player on the roster to develop into an ALL-PRO. But there is nothing wrong with a little realism when it is clearly not going that direction. I doubt, also, if he screamed in anger at Shuler or Howard critics a few years back.

I bet he did not give them a slew of ridiculous, offensive sarcasm.

I bet he did not tell them to "be ashamed" LOL

I bet he did not accuse them of "destroying" HS/DH careers.

I bet he did not attempt to compare HS/DH to a future Hall of Fame QB!!!!

And I bet he did not resort to calling them babies because they had the audacity to post an opinion different than his.

Get real - this forum does not make or destroy anyone's NFL career. A bit dramatic, I would say. And if someone's psyche is so fragile that a little criticism from fans destroys them, how far do you think they would have gone against MUCH HARSHER NFL opponents???

The only thing we owe Ramsey is a chance to show he can succeed. If 16 starts over his first two seasons is a real shot in somebody's book then fine, but it's not in mine.

Rod Gardner has had the chance to prove himself. He's started 3 full seasons, so no I won't feel bad if he's shipped out. He's had his chance, Ramsey hasn't, big difference.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]The only thing we owe Ramsey is a chance to show he can succeed. If 16 starts over his first two seasons is a real shot in somebody's book then fine, but it's not in mine.

Rod Gardner has had the chance to prove himself. He's started 3 full seasons, so no I won't feel bad if he's shipped out. He's had his chance, Ramsey hasn't, big difference.[/QUOTE]

As usual, Matty, you make a reasonable point in an intelligent way. I have been referred to as a hypocrite, an idiot, a non-fan, a baby, and several other uncomplinentary symbols, simply because I presented a point of view that others disagree with. All that does is tend to polarize a person in their views. You have disagreed, but have not stooped to that. And your rationales are having at least some effect. I am now hoping Patrick will at least get another shot this season to see if he can shake his bad habits. Even though I don't think it will happen, I am not against him getting a real opportunity, and, of course, I will pull for him to succeed. But if he gets 3-4 more games and still has the same basic flaws, I hope no one will feel we have to put the season in the toilet for more experimentation with him. Even if we LOSE 4 games with him at QB, if he STARTS TO CORRECT his obvious fundamental errors, I would be all for keeping him in there. But we NEED to see some sign that he is able to learn and able to correct his ongoing problems. He has had more opportunities than most guys get that have flaws as serious as his, and make no progress with them.

Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not :)

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not :)

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.[/QUOTE]

Amen brother! - H.H.
I fully agree.
I enjoy reading the posts I disagree with as much or more than the one's I agree with.
The disagreements in opinions makes it entertaining. But the anger, belittling and name calling is not necessary to get your point across.

[QUOTE=Hogskin]........We DO owe Ramsey one thing - every Redskin fan owes him this. Any time he goes onto the field as our QB, we owe him our full support. We cheer our lungs out for him and hope he plays a spectacular game. And if he DOES fail miserable, we DO NOT BOO!!......[/QUOTE]

Good point.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Hogskin I'm glad you have a thick skin, we've lost some good people on this board because they get chased away by people resorting to name calling when someone has a disagreement in opinion. To me that's very frustrating and disappointing.

The key is 'opinion'. Mine is no more correct than anyone else's. For all I know I could be dead wrong with Ramsey, of course I hope I'm not :)

I know we can all get a little fired up at times, especially after a frustrating loss like last week. We just need to remember that we're here because we all have something in common, we're fans of the Washington Redskins.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this post, Matty. And with our current state at the QB position, in spite of my strong opinions to the contrary, I hope you are right, also.

As far as running away from the board, as you know, I started to do that a while back for the same reason. But since I have been back, I have found that it is much easier to deal with that stuff if I don't follow them into the pits like I was doing before.

Could you imagine how boring this site would be if we all agree on everything all the time? We all agree on the ends-Redskins Super Bowl!!- but we differ on the means, which is fun.

Defensewins, you're absolutely right-the anger, belittling, and name calling isn't necessary and in fact, when people resort to that you can pretty much tell that they have nothing substantial to really base their opinion on.

Anyway, speaking of Hasselbeck, I guess the pine's not the only thing he's been riding. [URL=http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/entertainment/9740662.htm]bada-boom!![/URL]

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be opening all week for RedskinRat

Folks:

I really like Patrick Ramsey. I think he can become a very good QB sometime down the road. NOtice I did not say "great" because I don't know if he can be that good, but he can be a long time QB who does very well in the NFL

Having said that, I think it is fair to say that he isn't quite there yet. At the moment, I don't know that he will be the 25th best QB starting THIS WEEKEND. That says nothing about how good he might be or how short the careers of others who are better than him NOW might be. He has a long way to go to reach his potential.

As for the impassioned rhetoric about how this poor but noble soul came here and got dissed by everyone, let me try to give you a parallel example:

You draft a QB in the first round - but fans travel all the way to NY to boo the hell out of him as the choice is announced.

He plays for the team that had the WORST record in the NFL the year before he got there (Cleveland had first pick because they were the newbies of the league) and gets 5 wins in that year.

He has been selected for the Pro Bowl three times and has played in the NFC Championship game 3 times.

He's pretty tough too because he broke his leg in the first quarter of a game and played the rest of the game on a broken leg and won that game.

He's had some "tough times" with the fans and with a really sorry assed team to start withm but he saeems to have developed pretty well. Compare Donovan McNabb to Patrick Ramsey at comparable stages of their careers.

Nice rhetorical device dieselhog. Sorry to point out a counter-example! :FIREdevil

yeah, i wasn't really so hot on mcnabb until last year... he's gotten a lot of crap, but he seems to be doing alright now ;)... i'd hate to think we're anything like the iggles fans though, please don't boo...

[QUOTE=smootsmack]
Anyway, speaking of Hasselbeck, I guess the pine's not the only thing he's been riding. [URL=http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/entertainment/9740662.htm]bada-boom!![/URL]

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be opening all week for RedskinRat[/QUOTE]


Tim Hasslebeck has the freakin life. He has that, and gets to be around the Redskins all the time. Does it get any better?

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]It was one game. We're 1-1. Joe Gibbs is the head coach. I have faith that they will get it together. Practically everyone said the D would probably have to carry the offense through the first part of the season, and everyone was right. Yes, it was a horrendous performance with 7 turnovers, but this will be a learning experience for this team and a HUGE motivation factor, especially going into Dallas week...not to mention for the rest of the season.
Ramsey will get better. Hopefully it will be as a back-up, with Brunell getting healthy this week. If not, Joe Gibbs and Co. are about 1,000 times better to prepare him that the previous regime. He has the talent and the smarts, he just needs more time and/or experience working in [i]his first pro offense[/i].
[/QUOTE]
I don't know much about football and haven't seen as many games as any of your guys, but I do know that when I watch Ramsey play (especially last season and the little time he's played this season so far) I have never seen someone get sacked with the ball still in his hands OR get a delay of game as many times as he does. I almost feel sorry for him because I think that's how he was coached from Spurier. I think it's a shame because I'm sure he's very talented and smart, but just got his NFL career off to a bad start. I'm sure if he came in as a rookie this year and started his career under Gibbs, he'd be much better off in his future endeavors. My husband thinks that this whole week Gibbs was really emphasizing the mistakes he made and how to improve his playing and that he'll do good on Monday night. I think that no matter how much you tell him what to do differently, it doesn't matter. What matters is if he actually performs on Monday (and for the rest of the season, for that matter). I was the same way in school. I studied my tail off for tests, yet I still did poorly on the test. I sure do hope Brunell gets better soon!!!

[QUOTE=That Guy]leftwich also led a whole lot of punting drives... brunell got injured and they decided to go young sooner rather than later, brunell's play until that point was fine...

but you put way too much importance on having a winning team and its correlation with having a good QB...

jamal went 10-6 last year, boller has a better record as a starter than leftwich overall (without having a vet to learn from), so i guess boller is a better QB than brad johnson this year, and obviously better than leftwich overall...

theory doesn't hold up very well...[/QUOTE]

Leftwich in his rookie year had the fourth highest passing yardage (2,819) for a Rookie in NFL history. I think my theory holds up well. Why do you find it difficult to see a correlation between a QB and his team winning? He's more that just another player. You know that. I think Favre, Elway, Montana, Bradshaw would attest to that.

folks,i'm hoping for a miracle cure for brunnell cause ramsey can't beat dallas or anybody else.he is not ready to play.i would rather see hasselback out there playing than PR because the guy is two steps under heath shuler.he is tough,and he took one hell of a beating the last two years,but the skins will lose if he starts monday night.

I understand all the arguments against Ramsey. I just dont understand how sending Hasslebeck out there is somehow a better option.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I understand all the arguments against Ramsey. I just dont understand how sending Hasslebeck out there is somehow a better option.[/QUOTE]
well said

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]I understand all the arguments against Ramsey. I just dont understand how sending Hasslebeck out there is somehow a better option.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% - right now. That is why I have been saying TH needs to be moved up to #2 to start getting prepared. Then, when circumstances eventually give him a reasonable shot at it (which they surely will), if he is STILL not a better option we have a very big problem at QB. I would hope it would not turn out that way.

I am now seeing articles all over the place that scouts and GM's around the league are now saying the same things about Ramsey that some of us here have been saying for quite a while. But Joe Gibbs is GOING to give him another shot (either now if Brunell can't go, or later when he is forced into the lineup again). But he better perform this time, because it is starting to look like there will be very limited options if he doesn't show SOME improvement in his decision-time, pocket presence, etc. the next time around.

[quote]Why do you find it difficult to see a correlation between a QB and his team winning?[/quote]
never said that, but how did boller get the ravens those 10 wins? your record has to do with much more than just one position, and a guy with a 62 QB rating is not my idea of the second or dominant QB play. And i really wouldn't be comparing leftwich to favre or elway.

I haven't watched the Giants game yet, so won't comment on it. But I believe JG will always go with the experienced QB. Yes that is more likely to be Brunnell before Ramsey before Hasselback. The only change would be really bad performance or terminal injury.
On another note I wasn't happy the JG not throwing a red flag in the Tampa game. The skins have a former ref upstairs in the booth to advise. And there were two plays in which we could have overturned the refs call.