Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

What makes a guy a true #1? The # of 1000 yard seasons?

I think in 2005 Moss proved that he is capable of being the man. Last year it was really tough to judge him given his injuries and the QB situation. I think he'll be primed for a nice bounce back season in '07.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306248]You have a point. Moss and JC were out of sync too. But RM has over 100 td's. Not too many wr's in the history of the NFL can say that.[/quote]


Just to be clear, I think RM is a future Hall of Famer. But right here, right now I take S. Moss all day long.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;306479]Just to be clear, I think RM is a future Hall of Famer. But right here, right now I take S. Moss all day long.[/quote]

Yes, and that's the whole point of the thread. Who would you rather have now.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=gabe1984;306482]Yes, and that's the whole point of the thread. Who would you rather have now.[/quote]

Did you even read my post? I said I would rather have Santana.

Look, Randy Moss has had a great career. That's not up for debate.

To compare R. Moss to S. Moss over the course of a career is like comparing apples and oranges, wouldn't it?

The bulk of Randy's career was with the Vikings. In the past few years his production and attitude have declined considerably. So if we're not talking the right here and now about which one you'd rather have, then what are discussing, past seasons?

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;306493]Did you even read my post? I said I would rather have Santana.

Look, Randy Moss has had a great career. That's not up for debate.

To compare R. Moss to S. Moss over the course of a career is like comparing apples and oranges, wouldn't it?

The bulk of Randy's career was with the Vikings. In the past few years his production and attitude have declined considerably. So if we're not talking the right here and now about which one you'd rather have, then what are discussing, past seasons?[/quote]

12th man, I was trying to commend you. I agree with your opinion, I do not understand the hostility. I started the thread, and if you look at my original post I said that I want Santana too. Infact every post I've made has been advocating him, I don't understand what you're talking about.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=gabe1984;306503]12th man, I was trying to commend you. I agree with your opinion, I do not understand the hostility. I started the thread, and if you look at my original post I said that I want Santana too. Infact every post I've made has been advocating him, I don't understand what you're talking about.[/quote]

Sorry, Gabe. I figured that's were saying after I re-read the post.

It's that time of the month for me:)

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;306514]Sorry, Gabe. I figured that's were saying after I re-read the post.

It's that time of that time of the month for me:)[/quote]

lol, it's all good

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=gabe1984;306461]I can say that Santana Moss is pure number one receiver very easily. Santana Moss is a pure number one receiver. This guy was misused by the Jets, he was like the third string receiver there, then he comes to DC and given the chance to be number one, he tore it up. I mean after watching the '05 season, how can you say he's not a pure number one receiver? The other seasons he hasnt been given the chance, or he was hurt.[/quote]

Well, I want to see the 05 Moss in 07. But until then I stand by my opinion.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;306467]Well in 7 seasons Reggie Wayne has had only three 1000+ seasons. I would consider him a number one.[/quote]

Reggie Wayne plays on a team where he has been the 2nd option his whole career. If you put him on another team where he is the #1 target is he still the same player? Perhaps. But maybe not.

Again I'm not dogging on Santana Moss. I'M GLAD HE IS A REDSKIN. I just think Randy Moss is better. The guy has scored over 100 TD's. It's not even an agument if you ask me. And now that he has Tom Brady throwing to him I would bet that you will see the old Randy Moss. He still has plenty of gas left in the tank.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306568]Reggie Wayne plays on a team where he has been the 2nd option his whole career. If you put him on another team where he is the #1 target is he still the same player? Perhaps. But maybe not.

Again I'm not dogging on Santana Moss. I'M GLAD HE IS A REDSKIN. I just think Randy Moss is better. The guy has scored over 100 TD's. It's not even an agument if you ask me. And now that he has Tom Brady throwing to him I would bet that you will see the old Randy Moss. He still has plenty of gas left in the tank.[/quote]

You sort of hit my point about Wayne, yards alone don't really determine whether or not you're truly a number one. Other factors should be considered outside of stats alone. For instance, what do you do with opportunities given? In that regard, if you line TO and Reggie Wayne on the same squad, who's the number 1 guy? TO who drops more balls than anyone in the NFL, or Reggie Wayne who is efficient with the number of touches he gets?

And I'll state emphatically, again, Randy Moss is probably a first ballot HOF, but as of 5/3/2007, I take Sanantana Moss all day long over R. Moss.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;305892]I'm assuming he meant bottom of the top 10 or 15 (i.e. 14/15). Awkward phrasing though.

Off the Top of My Head and In no particular order, the top 15 receivers (give or take a few) in the league. So you are telling me Moss is at the bottom of that? Who would you take over him (not counting age)? Smith, Holt, C. Johnson, Harrison, Fitzgerald, maybe Andre Johnson (who would be a real stud on a better team). So that still puts you at #7 on a bad day, but I guess you could make the argument for #9 or 10 . . . certainly not out of the top ten though.

Steve Smith
Chad Johnson
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
T.O.
[B] Donald Driver[/B]
Torry Holt
Randy Moss
[B] Laverneous Coles[/B]
Hines Ward
[B] Andre Johnson[/B]
[B] Javon Walker[/B]
Fitzgerald
Boldin
Santana Moss[/quote]

the players in [B]bold[/B] should not even be mentioned on the list or in the same breath as the others on this list. Where the hell did Javon Walker come from, he simply hasn't played long enough to make this list (34 Games Started). Andre Johnson is IMO the most overrated of the bunch. He has never been on a competitive team and gets a bunch of garbage passes which boost his stats. He has only had one 80+ receptions season and has never had more than 6 TD's in a season (meaning that he is neither an outstanding possession or big play receiver). Santana (59) has started roughly the same amount of games as Johnson (61):

receptions: Santana (290); Andre (310) [I]comparable[/I]
yards: Santana (4689); Andre (3953) [B]Santana has 700 more[/B]
TD's: Santana (34); Andre (17) [B]Santana has DOUBLE

[/B]Donald driver has played many more seasons so his career is further along than santana. But his numbers arent that impressive considering his tenure

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306568]Reggie Wayne plays on a team where he has been the 2nd option his whole career. If you put him on another team where he is the #1 target is he still the same player? Perhaps. But maybe not.

[B][U]Again I'm not dogging on Santana Moss[/U][/B]. I'M GLAD HE IS A REDSKIN. I just think Randy Moss is better. The guy has scored over 100 TD's. It's not even an agument if you ask me. And now that he has Tom Brady throwing to him I would bet that you will see the old Randy Moss. He still has plenty of gas left in the tank.[/quote]

Dude, you're totally dogging on Santana when you say that he's not even a pure #1 receiver, how is that not dogging on the man? Did you think he was a pure #1 receiver in 2005?

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;306583]You sort of hit my point about Wayne, yards alone don't really determine whether or not you're truly a number one. Other factors should be considered outside of stats alone. For instance, what do you do with opportunities given? In that regard, if you line TO and Reggie Wayne on the same squad, who's the number 1 guy? TO who drops more balls than anyone in the NFL, or Reggie Wayne who is efficient with the number of touches he gets?

And I'll state emphatically, again, Randy Moss is probably a first ballot HOF, but as of 5/3/2007, I take Sanantana Moss all day long over R. Moss.[/quote]

Really?? Do you know the pressure Randy Moss puts on a defense when he is in the red zone? The dude is 6'5 and can jump out of the gym and runs a 4.3. He just creates all kinds of match-up problems for any corner. When he is used correctly, like he will be in NE, and when he is motivated, and that's a BIG IF, the guy is almost unstopable. You know damn well Bill B. is not going to stand for the Randy Moss that played Oak. You can bet your life on that. Plus NE has solid vets to keep his ass in line. I think RM was also down because of the situation he was in. He knew Oak sucked and he's not the type of guy to have in the locker room when things are down. But I can't imagine how good he is going to be with Tom Brady throwing him the rock. This is the first time Brady has a true stud at WR.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=gabe1984;306615]Dude, you're totally dogging on Santana when you say that he's not even a pure #1 receiver, how is that not dogging on the man?[/quote]

C'mon dude. I love the guy. I said he was a very very good #2 in my opinion. Dogging him would be saying he's sucks or is overrated.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306566]Well, I want to see the 05 Moss in 07. But until then I stand by my opinion.[/quote]Don't forget that Santana's last two years in NY were really good also. He didn't just come out of nowhere in 2005, he simply got more oppertunities.

He was good last year in the limited oppertunites he got, dogged by a hammy and whatnot.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306618]C'mon dude. I love the guy. I said he was a very very good #2 in my opinion. Dogging him would be saying he's sucks or is overrated.[/quote]I think it's clear that the boards opinion of a No. 1 receiver and your opinion are whats causing this disagreement.

To me and many others, a No. 1 WR simply means a guy who can be relied on at any point in the game and can do his job well.

To you, a No. 1 WR is one of the rarest and most elite players in the game. Guys like Boldin, Fitzgerald, Roy Willams, and Andre Johnson didn't make your list.

It's just semantics. I would argue that Santana is possibly the second most valuable receiver in the NFL (S. Smith)...but I would be undervaluing some veteran skills in Wayne, Harrison, Chad Johnson, and Holt.

Our perceptions of what a No. 1 receiver needs to be is the only argument here.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306617]Really?? Do you know the pressure Randy Moss puts on a defense when he is in the red zone? The dude is 6'5 and can jump out of the gym and runs a 4.3. He just creates all kinds of match-up problems for any corner. When he is used correctly, like he will be in NE, and when he is motivated, and that's a BIG IF, the guy is almost unstopable. You know damn well Bill B. is not going to stand for the Randy Moss that played Oak. You can bet your life on that. Plus NE has solid vets to keep his ass in line. I think RM was also down because of the situation he was in. He knew Oak sucked and he's not the type of guy to have in the locker room when things are down. But I can't imagine how good he is going to be with Tom Brady throwing him the rock. This is the first time Brady has a true stud at WR.[/quote]


First off, I watched Randy Moss sit at the podium when the Oakland Raiders introduced him following the trade, and out of his own mouth he was so happy to be a Raider and get a 'new start.' So, if Randy has been down it's certainly of his own doing, not the Raiders. He knew the situation he was getting into from day one. Oakland brought him there to help turn it around, I'll bet now that he's gone they'll actually make some progress. Secondly, as fast as Randy Moss is, I highly doubt he can still rip off at 4.3, not guaranteeing it, but I doubt at this point he still runs a 4.3/40.

Listen, I don't want to turn this into some Randy Moss hate thread, because that's not the stance I'm really trying to take here. Facts are facts. Moss will probably end up Canton some day, he's had a great career. And who knows, he could have a great year up there in N.E.
I'm guessing, barring any type of injury, he'll get around 1,100 yds.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=GTripp0012;306623]I think it's clear that the boards opinion of a No. 1 receiver and your opinion are whats causing this disagreement.

To me and many others, a No. 1 WR simply means a guy who can be relied on at any point in the game and can do his job well.

To you, a No. 1 WR is one of the rarest and most elite players in the game. Guys like Boldin, Fitzgerald, Roy Willams, and Andre Johnson didn't make your list.

It's just semantics. I would argue that Santana is possibly the second most valuable receiver in the NFL (S. Smith)...but I would be undervaluing some veteran skills in Wayne, Harrison, Chad Johnson, and Holt.

Our perceptions of what a No. 1 receiver needs to be is the only argument here.[/quote]

Moss is our #1. No question about that. But compared to the elite #1's I don't think he is in that class of wr. The guys you mentioned are right on the edge.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306733]Moss is our #1. No question about that. But compared to the elite #1's I don't think he is in that class of wr. The guys you mentioned are right on the edge.[/quote]

What are you talking about? He was second in the leage in yards two seasons ago with 1400+ there are WR's who are considered number ones on their teams who haven't done that.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=GTripp0012;306619]Don't forget that Santana's last two years in NY were really good also. He didn't just come out of nowhere in 2005, he simply got more oppertunities.

He was good last year in the limited oppertunites he got, dogged by a hammy and whatnot.[/quote]

Exactly. He is really good. That is what I said. Last year was a mess. He was way out of sync with JC. They had no timimg at all. And Brunell struggled ( I know u think he didn't ) so he took the brunt of that. But I think he should bounce back with a better down the field passer. Don't you? One of Santana's strength's is adjusting well to the long ball while it's in the air. One thing is that the opposing defensive coordinators really caught on to that little screen play that worked so well in 05 and they were waiting for it. So I would like to see more mid range/deep passes to Santana this year instead of throwing it 5 yards and hoping he can break 50 tackles.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=angryssg;306736]What are you talking about? He was second in the leage in yards two seasons ago with 1400+ there are WR's who are considered number ones on their teams who haven't done that.[/quote]

I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306750]I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.[/quote]

I am not getting into this again with someone else. Your opinion is your opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, they all stink and nobody wants to smell someone elses.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[IMG]http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[GOOD+MOSS]&set=key[number],value[89]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p1369299_customback.chain][/IMG]

[IMG]http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[BAD+MOSS]&set=key[number],value[18]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p1369223_customback.chain][/IMG]

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306750]I'm looking at his whole 6 year career. Not just 05.[/quote]

Well actually in his 4 years that he has been a starter he has had two years of over 1000 yards (including 1400 in 2005) but the other season when he had 1100, he only started in 12 games due to injury...if he had played that season fully he might have had more than 1400. He also had 10 TD's in just 12 games that year.

Combine that with the fact that in his two "off" years when he had 800 yards receiving, he only started 14 games (which includes last seasons fiasco with Brunell) and I think u could make the argument that had he played in all of the games he could have had 4 str8 1000 yards seasons. That sounds pretty elite to me.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=angryssg;306754]I am not getting into this again with someone else. Your opinion is your opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, they all stink and nobody wants to smell someone elses.[/quote]

I don't mind smelling some people assholes. LOL!

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306843]I don't mind smelling some people assholes. LOL![/quote]

That is not a good thing. I was involved in a 69 once and this chick farted up my nose. The shit burned! Not to mention that it threw my head back into the wall. I lost all intrest and kicked her out!

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=angryssg;306847]That is not a good thing. I was involved in a 69 once and this chick farted up my nose. The shit burned! Not to mention that it threw my head back into the wall. I lost all intrest and kicked her out![/quote]

LMFAO!!!! Can't say that has ever happened to me. Thank freakin god.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;306908]LMFAO!!!! Can't say that has ever happened to me. Thank freakin god.[/quote]

Consider youself lucky. That is the most disgusting thing that ever happend to me in my life. It took me years to recover. Everytime I get a good whif of methane I have flashbacks.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=angryssg;306964]Consider youself lucky. That is the most disgusting thing that ever happend to me in my life. It took me years to recover. Everytime I get a good whif of methane I have flashbacks.[/quote]

That explains a lot.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;306965]That explains a lot.[/quote]

At least I have an excuse, what's yours?

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=angryssg;306847]That is not a good thing. I was involved in a 69 once and this chick farted up my nose. The shit burned! Not to mention that it threw my head back into the wall. I lost all intrest and kicked her out![/quote]

Why would you ever admit that this happened and, even worse, you posted it in a public forum. Are you sure it was a girl? Come on, you can tell us...

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=Grim21Reaper;306972]Why would you ever admit that this happened and, even worse, you posted it in a public forum. Are you sure it was a girl? Come on, you can tell us...[/quote]

Dude you obviously don't know me very well. I can take as much shit as I can dish out. If you cannot laugh at yourself then you have no right to bag on others. Yes it happened. So what? There are many other people out there who have had worse stuff happen to them. And yes I am sure it was a woman, she was my HS sweetheart and we dated for a couple of years. That happened close to the end though.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;305872]I think Randy Moss is the overall better player than Santana, I think we'll see what Randy has left in NE. If it's truly gone or just part of being part of an anemic offense. I like Santana, last year he proved a lot to me, but I still think he's at the bottom 10 or maybe even 15 receivers in the NFL.[/QUOTE]


DASEAL, good point and I bring this up, now were 6 games in the season, and just cause your a skins fans, dont be a dumb ass, R. Moss is doing all the right things, saying the right things and is easily a pro bowler, where santana is good but his ability has seem to slip (a little) Randy Moss is faster a big target and a redzone threat......were santana is just as fast, and a good route runner....his hands arent as good as Randy's....... I'll say it and say it until im blue in the face.......we are a big time receiver away from being an elite team.........look how close we are now...and we have no starting receiver over 6' feet we have a 6-4 220 Qb throwing down at his receivers... man this team is so close from being on the same level as N.E.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

Wow, I think we all ate a little crow in hindsight.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=12thMan;366085]Wow, I think we all ate a little crow in hindsight.[/quote]

What happens is people tend to judge things with the burgundy and gold glasses on around here. I mean this whole thread was just silly. R. Moss has over 100 TD's!!!!! R. Moss is a better WR period. Always has been and always will be.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

Randy has redeemed himself no doubt, while Santana is in a serious funk.

When you compare their careers there's no doubt who the better receiver is, but I think at the time this thread was started it was looking like Randy's career was winding down and the intent of the thread was to compare them at that time, no career-wise.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=DEVIL'S OWN;366078]DASEAL, good point and I bring this up, now were 6 games in the season, and just cause your a skins fans, dont be a dumb ass, R. Moss is doing all the right things, saying the right things and is easily a pro bowler, where santana is good but his ability has seem to slip (a little) Randy Moss is faster a big target and a redzone threat......were santana is just as fast, and a good route runner....his hands arent as good as Randy's....... I'll say it and say it until im blue in the face.......we are a big time receiver away from being an elite team.........look how close we are now...and we have no starting receiver over 6' feet we have a 6-4 220 Qb throwing down at his receivers... [B]man this team is so close from being on the same level as N.E[/B].[/quote]

I don't know what games u have been watching but we could not be on the same level as NE even if they had Santana Moss and we had Randy. Brady and Peyton are in a league of their own and they will not let their teams be mediocre. I don't think NE is unbeatable (in fact we have a chance to beat them IMO) but they have something that the skins won't have for awhile. Experience, specifically big game experience. They know how to close out games and they have that killer instinct. They were losing to Dallas in the 3rd quarter on the road. Could you imagine how the Redskins would have responded in that same situation? We might have been able to pull one out but I am DAMN sure that we wouldn't have put it into 6th gear and won the game by 21 points like they did. Sorry man I love the skins and am not a big fan of the Pats at all, but lets not get carried away.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

Talent wise it isn't even close but motivation has always been Randy's issue. I don't hink Santana has issues with motivation.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

[quote=skinsfan69;366090]What happens is people tend to judge things with the burgundy and gold glasses on around here. I mean this whole thread was just silly. R. Moss has over 100 TD's!!!!! R. Moss is a better WR period. Always has been and always will be.[/quote]

Just to be fair, I'm sure people were judging results soley on the previous three seasons, not the entire body of work.

No one here is disputing whether or not Santana has had a better career than Randy.

Re: Santana vs. Randy
 

I sure would like to have Randy this year.