Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;336554]What is a peddle stool?[/quote]

I had a few when I started that thread....:)

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=Crat92;336300]How is that worse? Why is he a potential franchise cornerstone, and Troy Smith isn't? Is it because he played for Charlie Wiess? The guy hasn't won squat! It's not too difficult to play that cupcake ND schedule and put up numbers. Troy Smith is a winner, and a hometown kid who wanted to go to Cleveland. He would be in camp.
As I recall, Ryan Leaf was a potential franchise cornerstone too.[/QUOTE]

I understand your argument here and I think Smith probably should have gone a little bitter higher than he did, but while you compare Quinn to Leaf. Troy Smith reminds a whole hell of a lot of Eric Crouch. Smith is hands down a better passer, but he's got to get out of the pocket to do that well at this level.

You also referred to ND's schedule as cupcakes...I agree, but I would contend that Michigan was the only real test OSU faced until they got destroyed by Florida. The SEC comes as close to pro ball speed as any conference in college football and the cream of the crop of that group make Troy Smith look like a JV quarterback. I think that's the major indictment of the kid.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jdlea;336562]I understand your argument here and I think Smith probably should have gone a little bitter higher than he did, but while you compare Quinn to Leaf. Troy Smith reminds a whole hell of a lot of Eric Crouch. Smith is hands down a better passer, but he's got to get out of the pocket to do that well at this level.

You also referred to ND's schedule as cupcakes...I agree, but I would contend that Michigan was the only real test OSU faced until they got destroyed by Florida. The SEC comes as close to pro ball speed as any conference in college football and the cream of the crop of that group make Troy Smith look like a JV quarterback. I think that's the major indictment of the kid.[/quote]The SEC can make ANY QB look bad.

Truth is, a good evaluator would have had Quinn locked as the number one QB on his draft board [I]prior[/I] to the Sugar Bowl. LSU was easily a top three team in the nation, possibly even the team with the most talent, and they were pretty significantly more talented at ND. It's very frusterating to think that the majority of NFL analysts couldn't look at the game for what it was; two teams of uneven talent playing a "big game", in which the outcome was nearly predetermined. Instead it became an indictment on Brady Quinn, because for some bizarre reason, he was expected to win that game.

But I guess theres a reason why the same bad teams tend to stay bad year after year in the NFL while the same half of the league goes deep into the playoffs every season, Saints excepted.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336580]The SEC can make ANY QB look bad.

Truth is, a good evaluator would have had Quinn locked as the number one QB on his draft board [I]prior[/I] to the Sugar Bowl. LSU was easily a top three team in the nation, possibly even the team with the most talent, and they were pretty significantly more talented at ND. It's very frusterating to think that the majority of NFL analysts couldn't look at the game for what it was; two teams of uneven talent playing a "big game", in which the outcome was nearly predetermined. Instead it became an indictment on Brady Quinn, because for some bizarre reason, he was expected to win that game.

But I guess theres a reason why the same bad teams tend to stay bad year after year in the NFL while the same half of the league goes deep into the playoffs every season, Saints excepted.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that is a really good point. I don't think there were too many players on ND's offense, Quinn and Ryan Harris excluded, that I would want on my NFL team. I'm a ND fan, but I didn't think they had a ton of talent on that team

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

Brady Quinn is only screwing himself! He may be holding out for a bigger contract because he wants top 10 money, but he's also not going to start as he probably would've been if he was in camp on time.

Training camp is essential for young players, as they don't get the reps during the season.

Quinn should probably get paid like the 15th player taken in the draft so that would be meeting somewhere in the middle, but when it comes down to it he is missing out on valuable experience that is worth millions to a rookie. His contract will have triggers in it so he can meet certain levels and get his bonus, such as number of starts. This season because of the holdout he won't reach this trigger.

You have to put some of the blame on the damn agent, but in the end it is the players fault, because the agent is working for the player and the player needs to take some responsibility.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jdlea;336582]Yeah, that is a really good point. I don't think there were too many players on ND's offense, Quinn and Ryan Harris excluded, that I would want on my NFL team. I'm a ND fan, but I didn't think they had a ton of talent on that team[/quote]My personal opinion of Ryan Harris isn't even that high. I didn't think he had a very good senior season at all.

I don't think there was any position that ND was better at in 2006 than they were in 2005. They stupidly benched their best CB last year, All their LBs graduated and they were playing converted LBs all year, the DL stayed consistenly dominant, the OL regressed, and the offensive skill positions pretty much all maxed out their college potential in 2005.

Which brings me back to Quinn. Quinn reached the summit of the college game back in 2005. As in theres no way he could have been more dominant as a senior. The stats show he regressed a tiny bit, but I believe thats nothing but variance over a 13 game sample. I see Quinn as a constant from 2005 to 2006, and I would go as far as challenging the credentials of a scout who didn't see it this way.

The nature of college football is that many, many Quarterbacks will reach the games highest point every year. So how do you seperate the busts from the NFL prospects? Theres a simple theory I have to do so. I believe that in every QBs college progression, they will have a point at which they will max out (production wise), due to limitations of their own teammates, coaches, opponents, whatever. They can't get any more productive at the college game, because the people around them will not allow it. As the saying goes, "you're only good as your weakest link".

Scouts tend to see this as a red flag if a guy stops improving. But its my fundamental belief that the quarterback really is still improving all along, he just can no longer produce at a higher college level. He is however, bettering himself as an NFL prospect all the while.

So while JaMarcus Russell and Troy Smith had great final seasons in college, how can we be sure they ever reached the pinnical of the game? What if the talent around them at LSU and OSU respectively had allowed their games to reach so much higher than they had achieved, but due to Smith's graduation, and Russell's choice to leave school, a scout has no idea how this will translate to the NFL.

While its possible that Russell did plateou at his peak production last year, its unfair to ask a scout to be sure of this. It's hard to really quantify how much talent he had at LSU, so the correct scouting move is to leave Russell as an incomplete (and not use the first pick in the draft on an incomplete raw talent :doh:)

Smith is not a prospect for many of the same reasons. We don't know how much better he would have gotten with another year in college, nor do we know how good the 2006 OSU QB was supposed to be.

sf69, you may now completely dismiss this as garbage so you dont have to reply, and Matty...happy to oblige.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336509]Uh...

One Week Holdout=NFL bust? Am I missing something?

Seriously though, the fact that you don't like the guy should have no bearing on your evaluation of him as a player. If we can't evaluate objectively, then we best be sayin nothin.[/quote]

When did I ever say I don't like the guy?????? I just said I don't think he will have very much success on the nfl level. How does that cause you any concern that I am not objectively evaluating Brady Quinn?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336597]My personal opinion of Ryan Harris isn't even that high. I didn't think he had a very good senior season at all.

I don't think there was any position that ND was better at in 2006 than they were in 2005. They stupidly benched their best CB last year, All their LBs graduated and they were playing converted LBs all year, the DL stayed consistently dominant, the OL regressed, and the offensive skill positions pretty much all maxed out their college potential in 2005.

Which brings me back to Quinn. Quinn reached the summit of the college game back in 2005. As in there's no way he could have been more dominant as a senior. The stats show he regressed a tiny bit, but I believe that's nothing but variance over a 13 game sample. I see Quinn as a constant from 2005 to 2006, and I would go as far as challenging the credentials of a scout who didn't see it this way.

The nature of college football is that many, many Quarterbacks will reach the games highest point every year. So how do you separate the busts from the NFL prospects? There's a simple theory I have to do so. I believe that in every QBs college progression, they will have a point at which they will max out (production wise), due to limitations of their own teammates, coaches, opponents, whatever. They can't get any more productive at the college game, because the people around them will not allow it. As the saying goes, "you're only good as your weakest link".

Scouts tend to see this as a red flag if a guy stops improving. But its my fundamental belief that the quarterback really is still improving all along, he just can no longer produce at a higher college level. He is however, bettering himself as an NFL prospect all the while.

So while JaMarcus Russell and Troy Smith had great final seasons in college, how can we be sure they ever reached the pinnical of the game? What if the talent around them at LSU and OSU respectively had allowed their games to reach so much higher than they had achieved, but due to Smith's graduation, and Russell's choice to leave school, a scout has no idea how this will translate to the NFL.

While its possible that Russell did plateou at his peak production last year, its unfair to ask a scout to be sure of this. It's hard to really quantify how much talent he had at LSU, so the correct scouting move is to leave Russell as an incomplete (and not use the first pick in the draft on an incomplete raw talent :doh:)

Smith is not a prospect for many of the same reasons. We don't know how much better he would have gotten with another year in college, nor do we know how good the 2006 OSU QB was supposed to be.

sf69, you may now completely dismiss this as garbage so you don't have to reply, and Matty...happy to oblige.[/QUOTE]

What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=offiss;336719]What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.[/QUOTE]

That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

I honestly never thought Quinn was that good. I have a good friend who is a HUGE ND fan and won't shut up. He thinks that ND had the toughest schedule in the whole NCAA Division 1. Me being a Florida fan I beg to differ, but even if I wasn't a Florida fan, ND plays teams that were good... 40 yeas ago, and when Brady did play a higher tier team he got trampled all over. This kid isn't a starter in the NFL.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=offiss;336719]What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.[/QUOTE]You either didn't read half my post, didn't understand it, didn't care to interpret it or whatever, because there's really no "other side" to my theory as its presented. I wasn't talking about hype at all. I don't pay it any heed. I ignore hype.

If my theory is really incorrect, and Quinn did stop improving, how would you describe the reasoning for this? "Just because" doesn't fly with me, and you know it. Quinn was 22 last year, and you're accusation is that he stopped improving...well QBs tend to peak at 31 or 32. So to make such an accusation, you must really know something the rest of us don't.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;336736]That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.[/quote]All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:
[LIST][*]Accuracy Issues[/LIST][LIST][*]Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think[/LIST][LIST][*]Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)[/LIST]But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336880]. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.[/quote]

What are you talking about?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336886]What are you talking about?[/quote]Name one QB who didn't get better from the day he entered the NFL and had his first practice?

Doesn't happen. All 22 old QBs improve. Every one of them in history. No matter how bad they were.

Offiss' accuation of Quinn is that hes as good as he will get...and thats simply ridiculous.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336886]What are you talking about?[/quote]Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly [I]are [/I]they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336880]All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:
[LIST][*]Accuracy Issues[/LIST][LIST][*]Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think[/LIST][LIST][*]Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)[/LIST]But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.[/QUOTE]

That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jsarno;336904]That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)[/quote]Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336880]All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:
[LIST][*]Accuracy Issues[/LIST][LIST][*]Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think[/LIST][LIST][*]Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)[/LIST]But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.[/QUOTE]

Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336902]Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly [I]are [/I]they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.[/quote]

Where did you get that irrational hate thing from in the first place GTripp? I just don't think Quinn will be very good and I will absolutely argue with you saying that all QB's improve when they reach the NFL because they don't, but I don't have the time right now. Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336906]Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."[/QUOTE]

Well, his last two years were off the charts good. You can't count his first 2 years as definitive proof that he won't do well. Some people just don't come into their own until the latter stages of their college career. Quinn, as freshman, was horrible. As a sophomore, he played well. Not outstanding, but well. His Junior and Senior years were atronomically good. Meaning his performance was no fluke. Sometimes it just takes someone, or something to put it all together for you.
The man had 72 total td's vs only 14 int's in his last two years. He has the size and brains to be successful in the NFL.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;336907]Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.[/quote]See, as bad as they Ware and Wuerffel were, they certainly and clearly improved from their rookie seasons.

[url=http://www.profootballreference.com/players/WareAn00.htm]Andre Ware statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/url]
[url=http://www.profootballreference.com/players/WuerDa00.htm]Danny Wuerffel statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/url]


And just for good measure, Carr and Harrington with very clear improvement:

[url=http://www.profootballreference.com/players/HarrJo00.htm]Joey Harrington statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/url]
[url=http://www.profootballreference.com/players/CarrDa00.htm]David Carr statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/url]


No need to get testy towards me Smoot, I'm pretty testy right now as is. Don't worry about me, I can keep myself under control.

I will however, continue to ask people to defend their own opinions if they choose to post them on a discussion board designed for the knowledgeable fans.

And I would never, ever call someone stupid no matter how ignorant their knowledge of football may seem. At the end of the day, we are still only discussing a game...and its importance will pale in comparison to many things I myself am ignorant about.

We're all here because we enjoy being here, and I promise not to ruin it for anyone, so long as they agree to defend their own opinions.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336911]Where did you get that irrational hate thing from in the first place GTripp? I just don't think Quinn will be very good and I will absolutely argue with you saying that all QB's improve when they reach the NFL because they don't, but I don't have the time right now. Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.[/quote]I (probably incorrectly) assumed that you had irrational hate for Quinn. If I was wrong on that, my apologies. However, you've yet again failed to defend your opinions on all accounts here.

You've just disagreed with three fundamental NFL beliefs of mine at once, and provided no evidence for me to chew on whatsoever: That experienced college QBs make the best NFL prospects, that all QBs improve with NFL experience, and that Tom Brady is somehow better than Peyton Manning.

If you ever care to win my respect through argument, you know where to find me...

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

No one's getting testy with you Tripp. And if you're already testy then leave the board for a while and come back when you're not.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=wilsowilso;336911] Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.[/QUOTE]

LOL.
HAHAHAHA.
You must be a comedian. Manning might be the best QB that has ever walked. His intelligence is far beyond any QB of today or yesterday.
Brady isn't fit to carry Manning's jock.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;336930]No one's getting testy with you Tripp. And if you're already testy then leave the board for a while and come back when you're not.[/quote]

I can keep myself under control.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336939]I can keep myself under control.[/QUOTE]

Ok then

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jsarno;336933]LOL.
HAHAHAHA.
You must be a comedian. Manning might be the best QB that has ever walked. His intelligence is far beyond any QB of today or yesterday.
Brady isn't fit to carry Manning's jock.[/quote]Agree, but good luck getting him to defend himself.

If you squeeze hard enough, you might get "[SIZE=1]Three Rings[/SIZE]", but only if you are lucky. :tongue

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;336942]Agree, but good luck getting him to defend himself.

If you squeeze hard enough, you might get "[SIZE=1]Three Rings[/SIZE]", but only if you are lucky. :tongue[/QUOTE]

Three rings shows a great TEAM, not a great individual.
Fact is, Manning won last year with less than any patriots team that won the SB.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

We've already the Manning v. Brady debate back in February. No need to bring it up again here.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;336960]We've already the Manning v. Brady debate back in February. No need to bring it up again here.[/QUOTE]


Good point...there is no debate, Manning is better. :D

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jsarno;336954]Three rings shows a great TEAM, not a great individual.
Fact is, Manning won last year with less than any patriots team that won the SB.[/quote]A logical argument! In a Brady Quinn thread.

Stop the presses!

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336942]Agree, but good luck getting him to defend himself.

If you squeeze hard enough, you might get "[SIZE=1]Three Rings[/SIZE]", but only if you are lucky. :tongue[/quote]

As much as you try and hide from Tom Brady's greatness I know deep down inside way beyond all those stats that you hold so dearly you know that Brady is the man. You just haven't been able to come to terms with it yet. You got love for the wrong Brady Tripp.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=jsarno;336967]Good point...there is no debate, Manning is better. :D[/quote]

You might have just set a classic debate back to the dark ages with that kind of cutting edge assessment. Not really.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336976]As much as you try and hide from Tom Brady's greatness I know deep down inside way beyond all those stats that you hold so dearly you know that Brady is the man. You just haven't been able to come to terms with it yet. You got love for the wrong Brady Tripp.[/quote]On this weeks episode of "Where would we be without the Tuck Rule"...

I'm not a big Tom Brady fan, but I respect him for what he is...arguably the second best QB in pro football. I think he and Palmer are very close, and soon Rivers will likely surpass both of them, along with Vince Young and Matt Leinart, but for right now Brady is the model for what every young Kid should want to grow up to be. And thats because I'm not sure if we will [I]ever[/I] see a QB better than Peyton.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336980]You might have just set a classic debate back to the dark ages with that kind of cutting edge assessment. Not really.[/quote]:doh:

<resists urge to repeat last 6 posts>

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336925]You've just disagreed with three fundamental NFL beliefs of mine at once, and provided no evidence for me to chew on whatsoever: That experienced college QBs make the best NFL prospects, that all QBs improve with NFL experience, and that Tom Brady is somehow better than Peyton Manning.

If you ever care to win my respect through argument, you know where to find me...[/quote]

We spent 500 posts doing the Brady V. Manning thing so that's no good. I think you are right that experienced college QB's make the best prospects. Never said otherwise.

Now to the last point that all QB's improve upon arriving in the NFL. I'm not going to use stats and I know this might offend your sensibilities, but I just don't see how this idea that ALL qb's improve can be gauged by use of stats. I would say that reaching the NFL can easily become the apex of a quarterbacks career in terms of growth and development. Many quarterbacks do not improve at all upon reaching the professional level. Instead they are short circuited by the transition to the pro ranks. The complex schemes on both sides of the ball change the whole dynamic in which a young signal caller sees the football field. You are learning a new language. You have intense pressure coming from the fact that the speed of the game is far greater than anything you have ever experienced and of course you are now trying to make a living as an athlete. Many many many quarterbacks can not handle it. They step on the field as a pro and they know. I am not a pro quarterback. I want my mommy. They never make it back. It is an immediate regression in their growth and development and it happens all the time. You say ALL Qb's improve. I say the don't.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336990]We spent 500 posts doing the Brady V. Manning thing so that's no good. I think you are right that experienced college QB's make the best prospects. Never said otherwise.

Now to the last point that all QB's improve upon arriving in the NFL. I'm not going to use stats and I know this might offend your sensibilities, but I just don't see how this idea that ALL qb's improve can be gauged by use of stats. I would say that reaching the NFL can easily become the apex of a quarterbacks career in terms of growth and development. Many quarterbacks do not improve at all upon reaching the professional level. Instead they are short circuited by the transition to the pro ranks. The complex schemes on both sides of the ball change the whole dynamic in which a young signal caller sees the football field. You are learning a new language. You have intense pressure coming from the fact that the speed of the game is far greater than anything you have ever experienced and of course you are now trying to make a living as an athlete. Many many many quarterbacks can not handle it. They step on the field as a pro and they know. I am not a pro quarterback. I want my mommy. They never make it back. It is an immediate regression in their growth and development and it happens all the time. You say ALL Qb's improve. I say the don't.[/quote]Alright, fair enough, but do you have an example of someone who fell victim to the phenemon that you suggest. Someone who not only was bad to begin with, but clearly never improved (of course assuming that the career was long enough to improve?)

And assuming that you do have an example, what similarities does this example share with Brady Quinn that makes you think you have a "poor man's Plummer" on your hands?

After all, Quinn was the most experienced college QB in the draft (save Kolb). You just agreed that that was a primarily desirable quality.


-EDIT-

Ben Roethlisberger would be an example of someone who has regressed during his pro career. However, to claim that Roethlisberger peaked at age 22, (which supports the anti-Quinn argument) you would have to be reasonably certain that he will continue to regress until hes out of the league in a few years. I believe Roethlisberger will definately improve this year, and that hes still at least 4-5 years away from his peak.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

How about Cade McNown?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;336994]How about Cade McNown?[/quote]I think I would be justified in saying that McNown improved (from year one to two), and would have continued to improve as a QB had he been allowed to play more. Not that getting rid of him was a bad decision...

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/McNoCa00.htm"]Cade McNown statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/URL]


McNown did have terrible fundamentals, and being from Chicago, the first NFL game I ever went to was a battle between McNown's Bears and Ditka's Saints in 2000.

I am near 100% certain that McNown would have gotten better if given more time. But you are right Smoot, his 2nd season looks a lot like his first. If you look close, you can see a small step foward in completion %, but thats about it.

Even if I'm generous and say "All QBs not named Cade McNown will improve", I'm not sure how we could parellel that to Quinn.

I honestly don't think Cade McNown peaked at 22 though. Since he didn't play past age 23, its really an inconclusive argument at best. I always thought the Bears gave him a quick hook anyway, I mean, you invested a 1st round pick in the guy, doesn't he get more than second season to prove himself?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

I think Brady Quinn reminds me of Jake Plummer because of his athleticism and his swagger. Whenever Brady Quinn is surrounded by inferior talent like you say he had at ND I just don't think that he can make up the difference. At times Plummer showed that he could guide an inferior team to victory. The very good to great pro QB's can do exactly that on a regular basis. I guess calling him Jake Plummer Light was too harsh. Let's just call him Jake Plummer Like in my book.