Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

Heath Shuler is my example. He showed up in the pros and the high expectations and different skill sets that he thought he had mastered didn't really exist. His inability to meet basic read and react requirements was completely foreign to him and it gave him an extra large bitch slap the second he arrived in Washington. He got his fragile football pscyhe knocked loose and never recovered. He was in fact regressing in his development as a QB every day he played as a pro because in a sense he was just treading water trying to stay afloat.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;336998]I think Brady Quinn reminds me of Jake Plummer because of his athleticism and his swagger. Whenever Brady Quinn is surrounded by inferior talent like you say he had at ND I just don't think that he can make up the difference. At times Plummer showed that he could guide an inferior team to victory. The very good to great pro QB's can do exactly that on a regular basis. I guess calling him Jake Plummer Light was too harsh. Let's just call him Jake Plummer Like in my book.[/quote]So you were saying that he reminds you of Jake Plummer, not that he will actually play like Jake Plummer?

Brady Quinn is a much better QB prospect than Plummer was though. Plummer wasn't a [I]bad [/I]prospect, but he was below average.

I don't know too many QBs who can [I]consistently[/I] guide an inferior team to victory. Your boy Tom Brady couldn't, Carson Palmer didn't, Vince Young [I]did[/I] but only in college when he was athletically superior to everyone on the field. Peyton Manning...maybe, but even he couldn't consistently beat a superior team.

If you apply the same standard you are putting on Quinn to every prospective NFL QB, that he has to beat superior teams, I don't think you'd find a good one. Seemingly you not only have unrealistic expectations for Quinn, but a lot of other QBs, assuming no bias.

But I guess thats just my opinion of the situation.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337001]So you were saying that he reminds you of Jake Plummer, not that he will actually play like Jake Plummer?

Brady Quinn is a much better QB prospect than Plummer was though. Plummer wasn't a [I]bad [/I]prospect, but he was below average.

I don't know too many QBs who can [I]consistently[/I] guide an inferior team to victory. Your boy Tom Brady couldn't, Carson Palmer didn't, Vince Young [I]did[/I] but only in college when he was athletically superior to everyone on the field. Peyton Manning...maybe, but even he couldn't consistently beat a superior team.

If you apply the same standard you are putting on Quinn to every prospective NFL QB, that he has to beat superior teams, I don't think you'd find a good one. Seemingly you not only have unrealistic expectations for Quinn, but a lot of other QBs, assuming no bias.

But I guess thats just my opinion of the situation.[/quote]

A really inferior team is another story and like you said even a great QB can't put that kind of burden on his shoulders on a consistent basis. I'm talking about teams that are maybe 5% to 10% inferior. I honestly think great QB's can make that up every single day that they step on the field.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;337000]Heath Shuler is my example. He showed up in the pros and the high expectations and different skill sets that he thought he had mastered didn't really exist. His inability to meet basic read and react requirements was completely foreign to him and it gave him an extra large bitch slap the second he arrived in Washington. He got his fragile football pscyhe knocked loose and never recovered. He was in fact regressing in his development as a QB every day he played as a pro because in a sense he was just treading water trying to stay afloat.[/quote][url=http://www.profootballreference.com/players/ShulHe00.htm]Heath Shuler statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/url]

Shuler was every bit as bad as you say, but even he did improve while in the NFL. He completed a pathetic 45% his rookie year, but then managed a Vick-esque 52% his sophomore year. Obviously he did not have the mental skill set to succeed at the NFL level, but he did learn on the same curve that all the other QBs of his era did. It just didn't matter in his case because he was so horrible.

Shuler was a bad NFL prospect anyway you slice it. But it can't be said that he couldn't get any better after age 22. He could and did improve beyond his rookie year, and then his career was cut short...because he still sucked.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;337002]A really inferior team is another story and like you said even a great QB can't put that kind of burden on his shoulders on a consistent basis. I'm talking about teams that are maybe 5% to 10% inferior. I honestly think great QB's can make that up every single day that they step on the field.[/quote]Oh, and I'm in total agreement.

When theres a small gap in talent between two teams excluding the QB, then a great QB (inferior team) should be able to beat a bad QB (superior team) a majority of time.

But think about it: if you are looking at the total package, QBs and all, is the team with the great QB really inferior? Probably not. If the gap in QB skill is big enough, then they probably have the better team.

I think you are making it sound like that you have a football team...and then you have your quarterback variable. Of course, the QB is part of the football team, and you really can't analyze the accomplishments of the team without including the QB, and vice versa.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

What about Tony Romo folks? He's going to be a legend I hear.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=saden1;337010]What about Tony Romo folks? He's going to be a legend I hear.[/quote]I actually don't think hes very good. At all.

Romo has improved a lot through practicing with the Cowboys and learning from the vets in front of him all that time. He has improved a great deal since he entered the league I believe.

But I wouldn't be shocked if 2006 was his best season as a pro. Not because he's reached his peak yet, but because now defenses have film on him, and success won't come nearly as easily for the guy. I think the next 2-3 years are going to be very hard on Romo and the 'Boys and if Jerry Jones has the patience to live through his struggles, he may come out with a decent QB in 2009.

But for Romo, the honeymoon is over, and has been since like Week 15 of last season.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337004][URL="http://www.profootballreference.com/players/ShulHe00.htm"]Heath Shuler statistics - pro-football-reference.com[/URL]

Shuler was every bit as bad as you say, but even he did improve while in the NFL. He completed a pathetic 45% his rookie year, but then managed a Vick-esque 52% his sophomore year. Obviously he did not have the mental skill set to succeed at the NFL level, but he did learn on the same curve that all the other QBs of his era did. It just didn't matter in his case because he was so horrible.

Shuler was a bad NFL prospect anyway you slice it. But it can't be said that he couldn't get any better after age 22. He could and did improve beyond his rookie year, and then his career was cut short...because he still sucked.[/quote]

My point is that even though the stats did improve he was already broken mentally. Dosn't matter necessarily if it happens to an elite prospect or an undrafted free agent. Once your mind says I'm not confident anymore it's very hard to fight back. Not saying it doesn't happen. Shuler was broken and therefore was actually much much worse than where he was just before he came to that realization in the first place.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337013]I actually don't think hes very good. At all.

Romo has improved a lot through practicing with the Cowboys and learning from the vets in front of him all that time. He has improved a great deal since he entered the league I believe.

But I wouldn't be shocked if 2006 was his best season as a pro. Not because he's reached his peak yet, but because now defenses have film on him, and success won't come nearly as easily for the guy. I think the next 2-3 years are going to be very hard on Romo and the 'Boys and if Jerry Jones has the patience to live through his struggles, he may come out with a decent QB in 2009.

But for Romo, the honeymoon is over, and has been since like Week 15 of last season.[/quote]


While I was joking with the bit about legend, I do think Romo is a good QB. I've seen quite a bit of Matt Hasselbeck (can't be avoided) and Romo plays like him. He does a great job on the bootlegs and he knows when to throw it away. He also seems to throw the ball pretty well though he got careless with it towards the end of the season. If the Boy's running game doesn't get going I think he might have a tough time but that's about it. It pains me to say this but he's a good QB and probably will be until both Glen and TO lose a step.

Time will tell if he is any good.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=saden1;337015]While I was joking with the bit about legend, I do think Romo is a good QB. I've seen quite a bit of Matt Hasselbeck (can't be avoided) and Romo plays like him. He does a great job on the bootlegs and he knows when to throw it away. He also seems to throw the ball pretty well though he got careless with it towards the end of the season. If the Boy's running game doesn't get going I think he might have a tough time but that's about it. It pains me to say this but he's a good QB and probably will be until both Glen and TO lose a step.

Time will tell if he is any good.[/quote]It's hard to get a projection on Romo with any confidence. Dude was undrafted so we don't learn anything from his college days, and all we have is 12 games of him to date, the first 8 he played lights out and the last 4 he was borderline awful.

The similarities with Hasselbeck are there but it only takes a few differences to send them to opposite sides of the NFL QB spectrum.

And to echo, indeed only time will tell for sure. My money's on a regression this year.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;337014]My point is that even though the stats did improve he was already broken mentally. Dosn't matter necessarily if it happens to an elite prospect or an undrafted free agent. Once your mind says I'm not confident anymore it's very hard to fight back. Not saying it doesn't happen. Shuler was broken and therefore was actually much much worse than where he was just before he came to that realization in the first place.[/quote]Uhhh...ok? Not sure that you or I should be playing Shuler's psychatrist here. He just wasn't very good at football. That's not a mental condition, that just throws him in with 99% of the population.

I'm sure being horrible does a lot to break ones confidence, but this hardly means he peaked at age 22.

And how can we be sure that Quinn will suffer the same fate?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337017]It's hard to get a projection on Romo with any confidence. Dude was undrafted so we don't learn anything from his college days, and all we have is 12 games of him to date, the first 8 he played lights out and the last 4 he was borderline awful.

The similarities with Hasselbeck are there but it only takes a few differences to send them to opposite sides of the NFL QB spectrum.

And to echo, indeed only time will tell for sure. My money's on a regression this year.[/quote]

We'll just have to see but if it came down to Romo and Eli, let it be known that I would take Romo...lol.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=saden1;337021]We'll just have to see but if it came down to Romo and Eli, let it be known that I would take Romo...lol.[/quote]I'd take Eli.

And no, I would not put a smile on and act like I enjoyed it.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337019]Uhhh...ok? Not sure that you or I should be playing Shuler's psychatrist here. He just wasn't very good at football. That's not a mental condition, that just throws him in with 99% of the population.

I'm sure being horrible does a lot to break ones confidence, but this hardly means he peaked at age 22.

And how can we be sure that Quinn will suffer the same fate?[/quote]

Shuler was a very good football player until he had to make the giant transition to the NFL. Not saying Quinn will suffer the same fate. That would almost be impossible to match that kind of meltdown, but make no mistake the NFL makes rookie QB's meltdown right from the start on a regular basis.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;337023]Shuler was a very good football player until he had to make the giant transition to the NFL. Not saying Quinn will suffer same fate. That would almost be impossible to match that kind of meltdown, but make no mistake the NFL makes rookie QB's meltdown right from the start on a regular basis.[/quote]I really don't think Shuler had a meltdown, I just don't think that he was [I]ever[/I] a very good NFL prospect.

Remember, Shuler got selected in an era where the first round QB was not an every year thing. So scouts really had no idea that good college QBs aren't always good pro QB's.

Now we know that. Shuler was the first QB in a long line of college studs who didnt have the mental skill set to be successful at QB in the NFL. Back in 93, very few teams had successful QBs in general. Nowadays, pretty much every team has one somewhere on their roster (even Oakland now!).

Still, Shuler hit the league as a historically bad rookie, and left it as a still pretty bad 4 year player, but with experience to boot. He was a better QB when he left the league than when he entered it. Had some sadistic team picked him up and kept starting him, he likely would have improved steadily for another three years. He just never would have been good.

All QBs improve when exposed to NFL experience and Shuler is no exception. It's just that not all NFL QBs will ever been any good, despite improvement. If you are bad, you're bad.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337026] All QBs improve when exposed to NFL experience and Shuler is no exception.[/quote]

Still don't agree with that statement three pages later. Anyways have a good one.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;337022]I'd take Eli.

And no, I would not put a smile on and act like I enjoyed it.[/quote]
with a things being equal, i would take Romo. i was wondering what your reasoning behind taking Manning? just your preference?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=Cowell;336860]I honestly never thought Quinn was that good. I have a good friend who is a HUGE ND fan and won't shut up. He thinks that ND had the toughest schedule in the whole NCAA Division 1. Me being a Florida fan I beg to differ, but even if I wasn't a Florida fan, ND plays teams that were good... 40 yeas ago, and when Brady did play a higher tier team he got trampled all over. This kid isn't a starter in the NFL.[/QUOTE]

Posts like this make me laugh. I'm not a supporter of either ND or Fla, but give me a break. It's funny how ND's schedule works. In Weis's first season, all the "experts" looked at their schedule and said ND would start 0-6 and like 2-8. ND then went out and won most of those games, including coming within an inch of knocking off USC, and then their schedule became "soft" because most of their opponents were having down years, as if that was ND's problem when they scheduled them anywhere from 5-10 years earlier. This season it will be the same way. They play at Michigan and Penn State back to back, early in the season..they also play USC and UCLA within two weeks of each other. That's a brutal slate right there. Sure they have the occasional cupcake on there...like Navy (who's actually been a Bowl team in many recent years) or Duke this season.

But give me a break...Quinn's played in many high-profile games and despite limited running help, weak offensive lines, he's done very well...of course he'll be a good starter in the NFL. The fact that teams passed on him is because most teams this draft didn't need a QB, pure and simple. The only one that did pass who needed a QB was the Dolphins.

And Florida? Please. Sure they play in the SEC and have their share of tough conference games. But they also get to beat on wimps like Vandy, Kentucky, Miss State, etc regularly. And their non conference schedule is a joke, except when Fla State is good. Some of Fla's recent non-con opponents? Central Fla, Western Carolina??? (I-AA? at least ND doesn't schedule those)...Wyoming, La Tech, Eastern Michigan, Middle Tenn State, SJ State....shoot, when's the last time Florida played a challenging road game outside the SEC, or even the state of Florida? When's the last time they went to like USC, or Penn State, or Michigan or Nebraska? 20 years? 25?

To answer the original question both sides should meet halfway and get the kid into camp.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=dmek25;337035]with a things being equal, i would take Romo. i was wondering what your reasoning behind taking Manning? just your preference?[/quote]Manning's probably going to make a sizable maturity either in this season or next.

In his prime, he will be an average to above average QB in this league.

I can't say the same for Romo. He's got the tools to be, but is very far from a certainty. Romo might never best his 2006 season.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=wilsowilso;337029]Still don't agree with that statement three pages later. Anyways have a good one.[/quote]Well, anyway, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You too man, have a good one.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=RFKRat;337085]Posts like this make me laugh. I'm not a supporter of either ND or Fla, but give me a break. It's funny how ND's schedule works. In Weis's first season, all the "experts" looked at their schedule and said ND would start 0-6 and like 2-8. ND then went out and won most of those games, including coming within an inch of knocking off USC, and then their schedule became "soft" because most of their opponents were having down years, as if that was ND's problem when they scheduled them anywhere from 5-10 years earlier. This season it will be the same way. They play at Michigan and Penn State back to back, early in the season..they also play USC and UCLA within two weeks of each other. That's a brutal slate right there. Sure they have the occasional cupcake on there...like Navy (who's actually been a Bowl team in many recent years) or Duke this season.

But give me a break...Quinn's played in many high-profile games and despite limited running help, weak offensive lines, he's done very well...of course he'll be a good starter in the NFL. The fact that teams passed on him is because most teams this draft didn't need a QB, pure and simple. The only one that did pass who needed a QB was the Dolphins.

And Florida? Please. Sure they play in the SEC and have their share of tough conference games. But they also get to beat on wimps like Vandy, Kentucky, Miss State, etc regularly. And their non conference schedule is a joke, except when Fla State is good. Some of Fla's recent non-con opponents? Central Fla, Western Carolina??? (I-AA? at least ND doesn't schedule those)...Wyoming, La Tech, Eastern Michigan, Middle Tenn State, SJ State....shoot, when's the last time Florida played a challenging road game outside the SEC, or even the state of Florida? When's the last time they went to like USC, or Penn State, or Michigan or Nebraska? 20 years? 25?

To answer the original question both sides should meet halfway and get the kid into camp.[/quote]Can't remember where I read it, but ND's strength of schedule last year was in the top 10. Their first 5 games were played against teams who went into the game undefeated. And yes, Stanford, Air Force, Army, and North Carolina are cupcakes, but you'd be hard pressed to find a top 25 team that doesn't have a ton of cupcakes on its schedule.

Or you could be Boise State, have no one on your schedule, and then play the worst team to win a BCS conference in the Fiesta Bowl.

And then somebody gives you a first place vote for no reason, because you didn't lose to teams way worse than you.

No uproar over that one...

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

I think Brady will have very similar success to Eli, neither of them have the tools to be dominant, but they both can definitely be effective. Eli is just spacy

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

Selfish, no. Foolish, yes.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=cmc728;337141]Selfish, no. Foolish, yes.[/quote]

It took ten pages for someone to give me a straight answer:)

Good post.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;337148]It took ten pages for someone to give me a straight answer:)

Good post.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I'm new on here, and I want to get involved with the conversations. He's completely overestimating his talent and value right now. If he played anywhere but Notre Dame, nobody would care.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=cmc728;337152]Thanks! I'm new on here, and I want to get involved with the conversations. He's completely overestimating his talent and value right now. If he played anywhere but Notre Dame, nobody would care.[/quote]


First of all, welcome. Please post more.

But to your point, which is valid, perhaps he is over estimating his talent and value, but who isn't? None of them have played one down in the NFL.
Aren't they [I]really[/I] getting paid for their potential. Sure talent plays a key role in determing the value of these athletes, but how can you tell me Calvin Johnson is worth north of $60MM and Quinn is being nickeled and dimed by the Browns when they both were big time college athletes?

I know Johnson v. Quinn are apples and oranges I'm comparing, but there's something to be said about the culture of the current NFL and how they value athletes.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=cmc728;337152]Thanks! I'm new on here, and I want to get involved with the conversations. He's completely overestimating his talent and value right now. If he played anywhere but Notre Dame, nobody would care.[/QUOTE]


I don't think he is.
I saw an interview with Quinn, and he's not asking for top 10 numbers, they are off on incentives for a starting QB. The more I hear him talk, the more I don't blame him for holding out a little.
What if he becomes a stud QB and throws for 4k yards and 28+ tds? He'll get paid 1 mil? Why is Cleveland afraid to give him a contract with incentives?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

.......

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;337217].......[/QUOTE]


Classic post.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;337217].......[/quote]


best thing I have seen all month.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

Selfishness. Hmmm.

This is probably a post that belongs in the parking lot, but if three prospective employers are offering me jobs, and I take the one that pays the most, am I being selfish?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;337224]Selfishness. Hmmm.

This is probably a post that belongs in the parking lot, but if three prospective employers are offering me jobs, and I take the one that pays the most, am I being selfish?[/quote]If you have a degree from Notre Dame, then you are an overhyped and selfish bastard and you are stealing money from your employers! ;)

Otherwise, of course not.

Good points.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven;337224]Selfishness. Hmmm.

This is probably a post that belongs in the parking lot, but if three prospective employers are offering me jobs, and I take the one that pays the most, am I being selfish?[/QUOTE]


WHo were you drafted by to be in a privilaged and sought after work force?

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;336318]Quinn's going to be good. I think he'll be very good. Some think he'll never reach the pro bowl level, and thats more than reasonable. But I have to question your knowledge of the game if you are comparing Brady Quinn to Ryan Leaf. There are no similarities.

You're essentially saying that the last pick of the 5th round is a better prospect than a guy who up until 3 days before the draft was neck and neck for the first pick. As the saying goes "you're off your rocker!"

Do I know for certain that Troy Smith won't be the next Donovan McNabb? No, I do not. Can I be more than reasonably sure that he's not the prospect Quinn is? Yes, yes I can.

And what's with this "winner" crap? Are you saying that if the Ravens put Troy Smith in at QB, they will automatically beat up on teams like Ohio State did because...Troy Smith has an aura?! Dude, that's non-analysis at its best.[/quote]
GTripp I respect your oppinion, but that's all it is........YOUR oppinion.
You have yours and I have mine.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

[quote=IrishSkins Fan;336480]Wilsowilsoo:

For you to think Quinn is going to make big on his first contract and become a sponge, what credible evidence do you have?
First - Charlie endorsed him. Pretty good endorsement.
Second - Look at his work ethic, Russell showed up fat and out of shape, Quinn was ripped and ready.
Third - He learned a pro offense and how to study and prepare in college.
Fourth - He was a student of the game.

Grat 92:

You are a freaking OSU homer and are not objective so your posts almost don't deserve a response. But since they were so stupid I will opine. You who are so keen into the pro football world apparently ranked Troy Smith as a first round pick, unlike all the 6 figure experts that are paid to analyze and do this for a living. While I will agree that they don't always predict talent to the best degree, you and your vast depth of insight disagreed with about 30 of the best experts paid by the business. Please educate me with your great knowledge and expertise...you freaking goof....are you fucking kidding me...you are so blind in your homerism you can't be objective. Are you honestly trying to sell me that Smith who got kicked off the team (why?) is a better QB than Quinn.? Look at the numbers and if you want to go there then I will absolutely embarrass you.

WAR ND
WAR REDSKINS
WAR USMC

God Bless America...and I'm out....[/quote]
Wow! Didn't know expressing my oppinion would strike a nerve with you. No need for the personal attacks, but it's all good.
All I'm tryin to say is that i don't like how these so called experts grade any prospect. Heart and desire can't be measured.

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

time will tell

Re: Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?
 

I think he was wise to wait for contract to include incentives, and I think the Browns undersold him from the get go.