For those that want Ramsey traded or Hasselbeck to start:
 

I posted this in another thread, but since it might get missed there:
[quote]brunell - 1 TD, 2 TOs, 92 yards.... TOs lead to 10 points
portis - 1 TD, 2 TOs, 98 yards... TOs lead to 7 points
ramsey - 1 TD, 3 TOs, 142 yards... TOs lead to 0 points

which one is really worse? brunell couldnt move the ball downfield, making his TOs [b]WORSE[/b], though towards the end, NY wasn't really scrambling to get down field...

in fact all three of ramsey's ints were at the NYG 10 yard line or further back (10, 9, and 0)... driving 90 yards is harder than 30-40, ramsey's arm still helps.[/quote]
the QB play was AWFUL, but if you want to cut ramsey, there's two other people you may want to consider axing as well.

As for gardner, i think he all agree he cost us a lot of important 1st downs.

and I know ramsey telegraphs plays and seems to refuse to throw it away, but those TOs aren't any worse than brunell's play today.

what about posting the lost points from ramseys turnovers with them all coming when we were close to scoring? ramsey had one good throw from what I saw(the pass to gardner down the field)(the game got to a point where it was hard to watch it 100%) and all three ints were terrible decisions on his part. Yes brunnels int was a very bad decision, but the fumble was primarily the lines fault for not even giving him 3 seconds in the pocket on that play. I don't know how u could say just because ramsey drove down the field that his errors weren't worse than brunnels cuz just kicking field goals on two of the possesions that he threw away could have kept the game going. All turnover are bad but the ones made in or near the red zone are game killers. the blame of the offensive woes in this game don't rest on just brunnel, ramsey, portis, gardner or any of the coaches cuz there's a shitload of blame to go around after todays game. it does suck that what we once thought was one of our solid strengths(qb) has quickly turned into somewhat of a weakness already.

the problem is brunell didn't get to the end zone when he turned it over, he didn't even get close, cause he kept throwing 4 yard passes. and brunell's turnovers definately ended any chances of pointing up points too... ramsey got them in position a couple times... i don't think its fair to call brunell better just cause he couldn't get to the red zone after the first drive... ramsey GOT there... and he also blew it...

QB isn't looking like a strength... brunells arm is just weak. ramsey is error prone.

6 or 7 dropped passes probably wouldnt have caused those ints, or maybe the o-line gets the blame for not protecting worth a damn, or maybe its the coaching staff for calling those plays, .... who knows, its a team loss. offense just sucked and every damn one of them were to blame. Ramsey, PORTIS!, Brunell, o-line, and Gardner. Portis really pissed me off today with his "affraid to get hit running". i seen him literally give up on a few plays when he could have used some speed or jukes to get around them, but no, he falls over. Anyway, it was a team loss, and the whole offense is to blame. Defense did great, even on the 38 yard TD pass. Bowen just had way to much room to cover and no help on the inside. he gave it hell though, trying to knock the ball loose after seeing there was no chance to bat it down.

ramsey does not seem to be able to adjust his play to gibbs system,brunnel does.i admit they all looked like shit today,but i am telling you as long as ramsey keeps floating the ball downfield and hitting wide open safeties and cbs on the other team
gibbs will keep his ass on the bench.and he should,nobody ever said MB was the league's best qb and he does some crazy things,but not like ramsey.if brunnell can't play next monday night and ramsey plays like he did sunday,i would not be surprised to see hassellback play.

2 things are obvisous to me. Bowen is good blitzing but as a coverage safety he sucks. That was a simple post pattern he saw it coming he just didnt have the ability to stop it. and Ramsey can go to hell as far as I'm concerned I am willing to have Hasselback in there. Yeah Brunnel had a bad day and so did Portis but Ramsey gave up three picks in the red zone. RED ZONE which means they were worse. especailly when we could have kicked field goals and tied or won the game. Yeah Gardner had some drops and Portis fumbled and Brunnel looked stupid but Ramsey quit and Bowen just does not have the ability point blank heart counts but if you can see a post route developing and cant get to it cause you too slow no amount of heart is gonna help you out. I kniow this board hates Gardner so blame him but Ramsey never gets blame but if you think about it Ramsey aint never done nothing to deserve any kind of loyalty.i dont know what Portis was doing but anyway we were still in the game to the end but Ramsey made sure we couldnt win it. Its not about turnovers its about how your team reacts to turnovers. How do you bounce back the defense stayed strong and Ramsey kept driving those 3 INTS like knives into my chest.

Bowen does fine. The problem on that one was the coverage scheme. our SLOWEST DB (Bowen) was on their FASTEST WR (Carter). That is always a recipe for disaster.

Nobody is getting cut and if Hasselbeck starts then our season is definitely in trouble.

It's going to take some time for things to fall in to place offensively, we've got to be patient and have faith.

Matty72 you might want to change your "Giants: victim #2". It's a bit outdated.
I am really superstitious, so don't get upset at my next statement:
I really hate when anybody on my team or anybody that roots for my team guarantees a win. It is a huge jinx. Everytime a teamate or fellow redskins fan guarantee's a win my team ends up losing.
Someone posted last week that because team A beat up on team B (giants). And we beat team A. We should easily beat the Giants. It does not work that way.
I replied to that post that in today's NFL any team can lose to any team.
I don't care the matchup.

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Nobody is getting cut and if Hasselbeck starts then our season is definitely in trouble.

It's going to take some time for things to fall in to place offensively, we've got to be patient and have faith.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Matty. Everyone wants to trade Ramsey, and Gardner all of a sudden. It was one game! I swear last week everyone was giving Gardner props for the catches he made, and some even thought that he would become the primary receiver for this offense? Now, he drops a couple of passes and he needs to get cut or traded? Let's be patient guys, this a new system and everyone is still adjusting. Be thankul that at least we have a defense that has kept us in the last two games. Last year we would've folded after the first couple of turnovers.

Lets hope that this was an eye opener for our guys and they will come Monday night with a chip on their shoulder against Dallas. I bet if we win next week with Ramsey starting, then I guess we're trading Brunell, right?

Matty, if you think things could get worse with Hasselbeck in the game, just let the 5 turnovers between the QB's against a weak secondary sink in a little.

I don't care what Gibbs, you or I suggest to Ramsey this comatose QB will not throw the ball away for nothing. You would think a young talented QB would understand a very basic technique as a QB. That bull about Ramsey being the future of this team was a joke from the jump. He didn't believe it and neither did I.

Hasselbeck must be given a chance to execute and run this offense until Brunell gets healthy. What do we have to lose? We've already lost to the Cowboys. Now let's get a win with Hasselbeck in the game. Play a conservative ground attack with short screen passes to either side. McCants has to be activated. Hasselbeck can throw at least 30 to 40 yds down field. That first INT that Ramsey threw in the endzone was a pathetic. As strong as he is, why did he loft a short pass in the air with no worry even though there was 2 defenders on Coles? Man this is plain stupid. I'll give Hasselbeck 1 INT against Dallas . But 3 INTs in 1 and half quarters is sad. We had 20 first downs. Count them 20 first downs. We had four opportunities in the fourth quarter alone and we still lost.

Like Ponchus Pilate, I'm washing my hands of the saviour named Ramsey.

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]I agree with Matty. Everyone wants to trade Ramsey, and Gardner all of a sudden. It was one game! I swear last week everyone was giving Gardner props for the catches he made, and some even thought that he would become the primary receiver for this offense? Now, he drops a couple of passes and he needs to get cut or traded? Let's be patient guys, this a new system and everyone is still adjusting. Be thankul that at least we have a defense that has kept us in the last two games. Last year we would've folded after the first couple of turnovers.

Lets hope that this was an eye opener for our guys and they will come Monday night with a chip on their shoulder against Dallas. I bet if we win next week with Ramsey starting, then I guess we're trading Brunell, right?[/QUOTE]

This one game was the culmination of 2 seasons with these bums. How many times will we use the excuse it's a new system? The problem isn't knowledge of the system. I didn't see Gardner running wrong routes. I saw Gardner and Ramsey not focused on what they were doing and panicking under pressure. The problems with these morons is EXECUTION! Execution will make a busted play look good. No consistency, no TDs. 20 first downs for us. 20 points for the Giants.

Please no more excuses for Ramsey. He's done for the season. Enough said.

Real Concerns w/ Ramsey and Gardner
 

I have serious doubts that either Ramsey or Gardner will ever develop into the type of players the team can rely upon. Neither is a rookie, though they both continue to play like one - particularly Ramsey.

Ramsey is turning into one of those players that initially looked so good (on paper), before he started playing, but was never able to translate that into success in the NFL. Shades of Heath Shuler!

Gardner is just disgusting - one good play and several bad ones. He will continue to cost this team in every game. He needs to ride the bench - start McCants or Thrash or anyone else but him. He has done this game after game after game. What does it take for the coaches to finally admit what we all see?

Don't overreact, people...
 

It was one game. We're 1-1. Joe Gibbs is the head coach. I have faith that they will get it together. Practically everyone said the D would probably have to carry the offense through the first part of the season, and everyone was right. Yes, it was a horrendous performance with 7 turnovers, but this will be a learning experience for this team and a HUGE motivation factor, especially going into Dallas week...not to mention for the rest of the season.
Ramsey will get better. Hopefully it will be as a back-up, with Brunell getting healthy this week. If not, Joe Gibbs and Co. are about 1,000 times better to prepare him that the previous regime. He has the talent and the smarts, he just needs more time and/or experience working in [I]his first pro offense[/I].
I agree with Matty, Hasselbeck is NOT the answer! If Brunell can't go, Ramsey is the next best bet. As I said above, he has the ability and I have faith in the staff to prepare him to play well.
Gardner will lose his spot, if not this week, then within the next few weeks. He just drops way too many passes. Gibbs will not stand for it, especially with the quality WR's like Thrash and McCants behind him. McCants needs to play. He is the big, strong clutch receiver that Gardner is supposed to be. As for a trade, it won't happen, but I bet Rod will be gone after the season.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]This one game was the culmination of 2 seasons with these bums. How many times will we use the excuse it's a new system? The problem isn't knowledge of the system. I didn't see Gardner running wrong routes. I saw Gardner and Ramsey not focused on what they were doing and panicking under pressure. The problems with these morons is EXECUTION! Execution will make a busted play look good. No consistency, no TDs. 20 first downs for us. 20 points for the Giants.

Please no more excuses for Ramsey. He's done for the season. Enough said.[/QUOTE]

So what do you think the solution is? Trade Ramsey and get what? I do agree with you, but the problems we had are very, very fixable. Ramsey knows what he did, and I'm pretty sure Gardner does too.

Portis had two fumbles, and that too was a lack of focus but nobody says anything about him. Coles dropped a huge pass that would've kept our drive going and no one has said anything about him either.

My point is, is that the WHOLE OFFENSE is at fault, not individuals. The o-line didn't do a good job of opening up holes for Portis or protecting the QB. Brunell fumbled, Ramsey threw 3 pickles, Portis had two fumbles, and a bullshit penalty in the end zone that made us kick from our 20! Gardner and Coles BOTH dropped crucial passes. The whole offense played poorly.....

[QUOTE=LadyT]I have serious doubts that either Ramsey or Gardner will ever develop into the type of players the team can rely upon. Neither is a rookie, though they both continue to play like one - particularly Ramsey.

Ramsey is turning into one of those players that initially looked so good (on paper), before he started playing, but was never able to translate that into success in the NFL. Shades of Heath Shuler!

Gardner is just disgusting - one good play and several bad ones. He will continue to cost this team in every game. He needs to ride the bench - start McCants or Thrash or anyone else but him. He has done this game after game after game. What does it take for the coaches to finally admit what we all see?[/QUOTE]

LadyT, Ramsey has only played 16 games in two years so in essence he is still a rookie.

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]So what do you think the solution is? Trade Ramsey and get what? I do agree with you, but the problems we had are very, very fixable. Ramsey knows what he did, and I'm pretty sure Gardner does too.

Portis had two fumbles, and that too was a lack of focus but nobody says anything about him. Coles dropped a huge pass that would've kept our drive going and no one has said anything about him either.

My point is, is that the WHOLE OFFENSE is at fault, not individuals. The o-line didn't do a good job of opening up holes for Portis or protecting the QB. Brunell fumbled, Ramsey threw 3 pickles, Portis had two fumbles, and a bullshit penalty in the end zone that made us kick from our 20! Gardner and Coles BOTH dropped crucial passes. The whole offense played poorly.....[/QUOTE]

First of all, seek and ye shall find the QB for this team. There are always going to be eligible veteran QBs to pick up. Meanwhile, let's circle the wagon and play Hasselbeck until Brunell is healthy. Hasselbeck can run an efficient offense with protection. I don't care if Hasselbeck isn't putting up big numbers his first game, just run a turnover free offense. It's apparent that Brunell doesn't have the flash he showed in Jacksonville, but Brunell could play turnover free if given enough time to throw. This QB situation is fixable this year. I'm just angry that all of this as to be resolved 7 days before Dallas.

You're right the offense is at fault as a whole. The offense has given up 2 touchdowns already. The reverse play we ran yesterday was almost a fumble. Brunell almost threw the ball to Portis instead of handing it to him.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]First of all, seek and ye shall find the QB for this team. There are always going to be eligible veteran QBs to pick up. Meanwhile, let's circle the wagon and play Hasselbeck until Brunell is healthy. Hasselbeck can run an efficient offense with protection. I don't care if Hasselbeck isn't putting up big numbers his first game, just run a turnover free offense. It's apparent that Brunell doesn't have the flash he showed in Jacksonville, but Brunell could play turnover free if given enough time to throw. This QB situation is fixable this year. I'm just angry that all of this as to be resolved 7 days before Dallas.[/QUOTE]

Sunra, trust me dawg I feel your anger. But let's try to be patient and trust Gibbs on the decisions he makes. I'm Hasselbeck fan myself, and I wouldn't mind seeing play some this year, but I don't think Gibbs is making any drastic changes after our first loss.

I believe in our staff and I am sure the right decisions will be made when they have to. Until then, I'm just looking forward to better performance against the Cowboys. Gibbs will have them ready.....

[QUOTE=SUNRA]You're right the offense is at fault as a whole. The offense has given up 2 touchdowns already. The reverse play we ran yesterday was almost a fumble. Brunell almost threw the ball to Portis instead of handing it to him.[/QUOTE]

Another play to point out:

When Brunell threw the INT to Fred Robbins.....if Brunell would've had some time to get that throw out that play would've been a huge gain. It was a fake reverse screen to Portis, and I swear we had them fooled for a while before Brunell got pressured.....

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]LadyT, Ramsey has only played 16 games in two years so in essence he is still a rookie.[/QUOTE]

In essence he is not a rookie. Rookie means first year. Not first bad year you get another chance because you're learning a new system. Ramsey has not matured. There is a criteria that all coaches have for their players and if you check off all of the negatives versus the postives , it doesn't look very good for Ramsey at all!

[QUOTE=SUNRA]In essence he is not a rookie. Rookie means first year. Not first bad year you get another chance because you're learning a new system. Ramsey has not matured. There is a criteria that all coaches have for their players and if you check off all of the negatives versus the postives , it doesn't look very good for Ramsey at all![/QUOTE]

You really think the coaches are judging Ramsey by his performances last year with a team that couldn't protect him? After being coached by a college level coaching staff?

My goodness. One loss and we're tearing down the franchise? That's what got us into this mess! Stick with your folks, let Gibbs and Co. coach them FOR A FEW SEASONS and then see what you get. This is the second game. Have a little toughness. Stick with it!

[QUOTE=JWsleep]My goodness. One loss and we're tearing down the franchise? That's what got us into this mess! Stick with your folks, let Gibbs and Co. coach them FOR A FEW SEASONS and then see what you get. This is the second game. Have a little toughness. Stick with it![/QUOTE]

:thumb:

Thanks JW.

[quote]Meanwhile, let's circle the wagon and play Hasselbeck until Brunell is healthy. Hasselbeck can run an efficient offense with protection. I don't care if Hasselbeck isn't putting up big numbers his first game, just run a turnover free offense[/quote]
you realize out of all our QBs, hasselbeck [b]HAS THE HIGHEST INT %[/b], it would be [b]worse[/b] than either MB or PR, you really need to chill on your hating, its one bad game... TH has only had [b]one[/b] decent showing against 3rd stringers, but besdies that, none of our QBs have looked very good, and he's looked the worst.

if hasselbeck goes in, it means our season is done.
TH had 2 ints in preseason (one in 17 throws), MB (one in 46) and PR (one in 58) had 1... last year, TH was the [b]only[/b] one of our QBs to throw more ints than TDs last year... he isn't bad, but he is most definately not error proof.

Ramsey Again
 

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]LadyT, Ramsey has only played 16 games in two years so in essence he is still a rookie.[/QUOTE]
True, he's only played 16 games and one could argue as to whether he's a rookie or not. To me, once you've played one season, you're no longer a rookie.

But that aside, the biggest concern I have is that I've seen no improvement from him, absolutely none. If anything he looks worse than he did 2 years ago, when he was a rookie, by anyone's definition.

He's making the same mistakes and making more of them. He looks totally unsure of himself and that feeling is communicated to the team, consciously or not.

To me, that is the real reason many of us are so concerned about his future as a starting QB. We've not seen any kind of progression from him, just a regression.

I think we should frame SUNRA's Ramsey comment to hand back to him when Ramsey lifts the Super Bowl trophy.

One game, we're all annoyed but that may serve as a reminder that the offense is a work in progress. Calm down, please.

How many games did it take for terry bradshaw to come through for the steelers?? lets say 4 seasons. give ramsey a damn break. no loyalty with some of you all, its crazy. Pat just had to change a whole playbook, none the less play for Steve Shittier and take a freaking pounding. He's running on instincts that he learned since he came into the NFL. even if he sucks the rest of this season, give him a chance. 1 or 2 more seasons. The guy has heart, and he takes the blame, and as well, has a rocket arm. Gibbs will show him how to play in the NFL, but it does take time.

AND.... if gardner caught that touchdown pass that he dropped, would we hear as much complaints? NO

I missed the game, but judging from the posts I've read it was quite an unimpressive showing all the way around.

First, I guess this goes to show that Gibbs is not Mr. Quick Fix. We were 5-11 last season and while some of us seem to have the Answers (Trade Ramsey! Cut Brunell! Start Hasselbeck! Start McCants!), the question hasn't really ever been posed.

I've seen Hasselbeck play and I wasn't that impressed. Maybe he's a helluva qb, but after watching the Dallas game last season I don't ever want to see that guy touch the field as a starter again. I don't care if he played like Joe Montana after that, he was as inept as any qb I've ever seen in a Redskins uniform and that includes Jeff George when he was back there ducking and hiding after taking the snap.

Gibbs offense takes a while to come together, all you had to do is go back to his first tenure to get that. I don't know if I've ever seen a coach come in and install a new system and get immediate results. There's a reason that the defenses are ahead of the offenses early in the season, offense takes time. This isn't the rec league at your local Y, this is the NFL and you need continuity to be successful. We've got Chris "This Way Please" Samuels, Dockery, Coles, Rod "Was That For Me?" Gardner and Randy Thomas back from last season.
:banghead: Go ahead and start calling for Hasselbeck and more Betts and McCants if you want. I'm with Gibbs. If he says Ramsey is the starter, then Ramsey is the guy who's going to go out and beat Dallas. If he says Hasselbeck is the guy, then he's the guy. But you don't win in the NFL by changing horses midstream. Hasselbeck is a cool third qb, but let's not get it twisted, he is most definitely not Tom Brady. Just thinking about Hasselbeck brings back memories of last year's Dallas game and :vomit-smi my bad.

[quote]AND.... if gardner caught that touchdown pass that he dropped, would we hear as much complaints?[/quote]

yeah, cause he still dropped a ton, and fumbling possession WRs aren't very common problems... probably not as vitriolic of a response though...

I'm not sure any of the current redskin qbs will be hoisting a super bowl trophy with any team. I think the only one that has a chance with the skins is Brunell, next year.

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]I think we should frame SUNRA's Ramsey comment to hand back to him when Ramsey lifts the Super Bowl trophy.

One game, we're all annoyed but that may serve as a reminder that the offense is a work in progress. Calm down, please.[/QUOTE]


I hope you're right buddy. I hope you're right. :dallas:

[QUOTE=irish]I'm not sure any of the current redskin qbs will be hoisting a super bowl trophy with any team. I think the only one that has a chance with the skins is Brunell, next year.[/QUOTE]

Ummm....Gibbs won Super Bowls with Doug Williams and Mark Rypien! He could do it with Brunell or Ramsey. It's a long season....have a little faith.

ANd don't forget: Jay Schreoder (sp?) was the QB during that season: Williams did NOT look good. And Rypien looked HORRIBLE at times when he was developing. He looked kinda like Ramsey: Slow, Confused, and with a gun for an arm. He used to throw PAINFUL ints in games. THen Gibbs got him together, and we had the 91 season where Ryp was SUperbowl MVP. He got to say "I'm going to Disney World!" If Gibbs can get Rypien to Disney WOrld, he can get Ramsey up to speed. But we've gotta have a little patience here, people! THank God it's Gibbs coaching, or Danny-boy (who is as impatient a skins fan as I've ever seen) would probably be down in the locker room causing trouble.

Ramsey still has the potential to be a very good QB. As of last Sunday, he has not come near that level with regard to his on-field performance. But you don't give up on him just yet. And you don't pretend that he is really wonderful but the football gods have conspired to make him look bad either.

Yes, he has only started 16 games but that does not make him a rookie. To make that arugument you are admitting that he is so dumb that he cannot learn anything when he is out of the game. Hell, a fire plug isn't that dumb! So, forget the "he's a rookie" stuff. He has been here a while; he should be further advanced. He's not. Deal with it.

Check out Byron Leftwich in Jax. He has fewer starts than Ramsey. But the Jags chose to send Brunell here and keep Leftwich. Makes you stop and think, no?

Gardner is different situation. Garnder was inconsistent and unfocused when Marty was here; he was the same when Suprrier was here; he is the same now that Gibbs is here. I see a definite trend. I believe he is a free agent after this year. Anyone for making him the "franchise player"? Remember when folks here suggested trading Gardner for another teams' high first round pick? Like that would ever have happened...

[quote]Check out Byron Leftwich in Jax. He has fewer starts than Ramsey. But the Jags chose to send Brunell here and keep Leftwich. Makes you stop and think, no?[/quote]

yeah, and from what i've seen from leftwich, he's not exactly burning things up down there...

[QUOTE=That Guy]yeah, and from what i've seen from leftwich, he's not exactly burning things up down there...[/QUOTE]

At least Leftwich is winning games.

The Jags aren't exactly winning because of him, he's got a stellar 50% completion percentage right now and a QB rating of 61.9.

I wonder if the Jags are shopping him yet, he doesn't seem to be catching on very quickly.

;)

[quote]At least Leftwich is winning games.[/quote]
he's not why they're winning... ramsey put up as many points as he did this week, so did portis brunell and cooley...

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]The Jags aren't exactly winning because of him, he's got a stellar 50% completion percentage right now and a QB rating of 61.9.

I wonder if the Jags are shopping him yet, he doesn't seem to be catching on very quickly.

;)[/QUOTE]

What they didn't do is bring in a veteran and bench Leftwich during training camp. Keep reading the stats and you'll find that what your record is, is what you are. I guess Leftwich didn't lead his team down the field and throw a spectacular pass to the rookie who won the game in the first game of the year? Your'e barking up the wrong tree comparing Ramsey to Leftwich. Your record says who your are.