Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

So, the general word is that the two QBs at the top of the Redskins board are Andy Dalton and Jake Locker..

How viable that is, who knows for sure. But let's assume that's true for the purposes of this discussion.

So Kyle Shanahan is an Andy Dalton guy, and Mike Shanahan is a Jake Locker guy.

Question here is who should get to pick his QB?

On the one hand-Mike Shanahan is the President and Head Coach of the team. Ultimately he's accountable for everything. On the other hand, we're running Kyle Shanahan's offense, he's the one calling the plays, and he's likely a longer term fixture on the Redskins sideline (unless he bolts for someplace else) than his dad.

This isn't about which QB you think we should draft, just whose choice do you think it should be?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I don't know that there is a good answer here, but I do not think that Mike Shanahan picking his guy is good for the franchise. When the QB they select is in his prime, Mike Shanahan will not be the coach here (and Kyle probably won't be on the staff either). If we want to enjoy better short-term (i.e. 2012) success, it should probably be a player that fits in Kyle Shanahan's scheme. But I would rather they take the player with the highest consensus upside instead.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Yeah, most ideal is someone they could all agree on. But reality is consensus picks rarely happen. There's always someone who makes the tie-breaking call. Or you agree that to defer your choice this time around to get yours next time around.

This is usually between the coach and general manager, not the coach and offensive coordinator.

But, here's another way to look at it I guess. Should Mike Shanahan, with ultimately the tie-breaking power, defer his opinion to Kyle Shanahan. Or should he go with his opinion and his guy because-as I said earlier-ultimately he's accountable for everything

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I would go with Dalton. Kyle is our OC. He calls the plays. Yes some bootlegs and other things similar are still included but in kyle's offense less of that is needed. Matt Schaub who isn't incredibly athletic thrived in his system, because he is accurate and has a fairly good arm. That is why Dalton will be the best choice. And besides, Dalton will be ready for the NFL faster.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Kyle's. Especially since Kyle is not only calling the plays but there's also a distinct possibility that Kyle will be here even after his father is gone. So if we're setting up for the long run I would much rather have a QB that Kyle is comfortable with.

So lets see.

Kyle QB's: Dalton, Ponder, Mallet.

Mike QB's: Locker, Newton, Kaepernick

Best fit for both: Gabbert

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I would probably go Mike, I think he is the proven talent evaluator. I like Kyle and he is no doubt talented, but I like Mike's track record better.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;795079]Yeah, most ideal is someone they could all agree on. But reality is consensus picks rarely happen. There's always someone who makes the tie-breaking call. Or you agree that to defer your choice this time around to get yours next time around.

This is usually between the coach and general manager, not the coach and offensive coordinator.

But, here's another way to look at it I guess. Should Mike Shanahan, with ultimately the tie-breaking power, defer his opinion to Kyle Shanahan. Or should he go with his opinion and his guy because-as I said earlier-ultimately he's accountable for everything[/quote]Well, if it wasn't Kyle, Mike wouldn't be deferring his opinion to anyone else. I don't think that's inherently good or bad -- they can do what they want since either they turn this thing around relatively quickly, or the Redskins are going to have to tear down and rebuild again in a couple years when they are both gone.

Because of the above, if Mike Shanahan really thinks that Kyle can/should win with Jake Locker, there's no reason to defer and pick Dalton. But this has the smell of the Russell/Quinn Raiders pick of 2007: if the guy in charge makes the call and he's wrong and ultimately responsible, you're still nowhere good three years from now. People will get fired, and the organization will not have a direction.

It probably makes a difference if Kyle is more pro-Dalton or anti-Locker.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

By consensus, I meant "conventional wisdom" not "in the evaluation of the Redskins coaching staff." I may be the last guy to cite conventional wisdom, but the Redskins need the guy who is the most prototypical quarterback available, because I don't believe they can afford to switch QBs when the offense changes.

Such is the problem when the organization is lead by a 57 year old head honcho. The strategies have to center around a "win now" philosophy because there is no tomorrow.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

If there is really a definite line drawn and there are strong opinions on both sides of the fence, then mike shanahan must really strongly consider kyles choice. I think you have to go by what was unofficially reported with the mcnabb trade. It was said that the mcnabb trade was solely initiated and decided by mike shanahan and Kyle S. was not really involved. Going by past history and results, Mike S. can't afford to make this same mistake twice.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

In this scenario, Dalton. Kyle runs the offense. He should get his guy.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Well, to say that Kyle wasn't involved in the trade isn't true. He was and thought it would take some work to get McNabb to where he (Kyle) wanted him to be. He wasn't highly in favor of it, but he knew what was going down and didn't flat out say no. But I see your point

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

By the way, although I prefer Locker to Dalton I would agree that we should go with Kyle's guy.

Mike already put his reputation out there by choosing his son to run the offense. Some already see that as nepotism. So he might as well really show that he believes he chose the right guy to run his offense by letting him pick his guy.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;795094]Well, to say that Kyle wasn't involved in the trade isn't true. He was and thought it would take some work to get McNabb to where he (Kyle) wanted him to be. He wasn't highly in favor of it, but he knew what was going down and didn't flat out say no. But I see your point[/quote]

Hopefully both Mike and Kyle shanahan learned from the mcnabb mistake then. Mike S.: that it's not just his offense anymore and he needs to work with Kyle closely. Kyle: to not be so passive in important personnel decisions, especially with ones that greatly impact the offense that he is responsible for.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

J. Jones in first. Kyles man Dalton in the second. Let's give Kyle some toys.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

If we were to assume that Rex was Kyle's guy and DM was more Mike's (even though Kyle didn't flat out say no to DM), then I'd go with Kyle's.
Kyle is going to work more closely with the qb than Mike is and if he can't get along with the qb (as McNabb's agent said) then any qb won't develop well.

Of course I'd rather have Rex this year, draft defense exclusively this year and get a qb next year.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;795098]J. Jones in first. Kyles man Dalton in the second. Let's give Kyle some toys.[/quote]

I wouldn't mind this as much as some others would, but how much of a gamble would that be -- knowing how much some teams need qbs -- to rely that Dalton would still be available when the skins pick in the 2nd round?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SOUL-SKINS;795098]J. Jones in first. Kyles man Dalton in the second. Let's give Kyle some toys.[/quote]

Dalton will not last that long. Right now he's looking at being as high as the 24th pick (it's rumored that some teams are scared the Seahawks might take him so the 24th pick is being targeted for teams looking to trade up). And if he does make it to the second round I believe he'll be a top 5 pick...in the second round.

His pre draft stock is a good bit better then a similar prospect in Kolb who went 36th overall.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;795077]So, the general word is that the two QBs at the top of the Redskins board are Andy Dalton and Jake Locker..

How viable that is, who knows for sure. But let's assume that's true for the purposes of this discussion.

So Kyle Shanahan is an Andy Dalton guy, and Mike Shanahan is a Jake Locker guy.

Question here is who should get to pick his QB?

On the one hand-Mike Shanahan is the President and Head Coach of the team. Ultimately he's accountable for everything. On the other hand, we're running Kyle Shanahan's offense, he's the one calling the plays, and he's likely a longer term fixture on the Redskins sideline (unless he bolts for someplace else) than his dad.

This isn't about which QB you think we should draft, just whose choice do you think it should be?[/quote]Going along with your premise...

This is a great question, but imo its a question that leads to other questions to answer adequately.

The HC should choose the QB especially when the HC is Mike Shanahan.

The bottom line for me is that the HC always has final say on personnel decisions.

A second and at least equal voice when it comes specifically to the QB position needs to be the OC.
The OC is ultimately the person in charge of the offense and the person that's gonna work the closet with the QB so its imperative that the OC be on board w/ the decision.

Then you have to consider the experience/respective track records with QBs and eye for talent at the QB position.

Imo there should be no question about who is the superior talent in this regard.

I believe that Mike S. could have coached the exact same personnel we had on offense last year and the results would have been better. And I believe that Mike can guide Kyle through the process of becoming not only a top OC but a potential HC candidate. But I digress.




















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I'm not sure if I agree with all your premises. (mainly about how long and how big a factor the respective coaches tenures are to the decision making process)

I'm not privvy to the same information you are but I doubt the situation is as simple as Kyle likes QB X and Mike likes QB Y.

I think the dichomoty of the thought process behind who likes which QB must be much deeper then that.
But, back to the decision making process.

At the end of the day QB evaluation is pretty much universal, meaning that
if Kyle and Mike are grading out the QBs there rankings will be close.

One may like QB X a little more then QB Y but it wouldn't mean they dislike the [I][B]other[/B][/I] QB prospect.

The question for me boils down to value rather then who like which QB more.

Imo the difference and benefit between the way Kyle runs the offense vs Mike is that Mike's [I]requires[/I] or [I]excells[/I] under the direction of a QB w/ elite physical talent (i.e. velocity/mobility) where Kyle's offense does not require elite arm talent or mobility.

In most cases a good QB albeit less physically gifted can be found outside the 1st 2 rounds; which is a [I]good[/I] thing because it reduces the resources that need to spent on the QB position.

[I]But[/I] in this draft it appears that the cost for all QBs has been inflated by the demand to the point where the cost for a physically gifted QB may only be marginally more expensive then the cost of a QB w/ average physical skills.

If Locker and Dalton are closely rated by the passing game staff then the question comes down to how much they like to gamble:
the [U]certainty[/U] of a Locker a scheme diverse but raw QB with elite physical gifts QB they like at 10 vs [I][B]an extra pick[/B][/I]+ the highly likely possibility of scheme specific, more polished but less physically gifted QB the like in a trade down scenario (Dalton/Ponder) but a significantly reduced likelihood of Locker and also the possibility a wildcard QB like Mallett a more elite arm talent, polished QB that's more scheme diverse then the Dalton/Ponder.

My question is if they Dalton and maybe Ponder shouldn't they also like Ricky Stanzi?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I don't know if it matters unless we get some talent around the QB, at any rate is take Kyles QB over Mikes but draft Locker if that makes since.. I think Jake could be a Drop back passer in time.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Does John Beck have a 'guy'?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=rypper11;795099]Of course I'd rather have Rex this year, draft defense exclusively this year and get a qb next year.[/quote]

AMEN Bro. Rypper! AMEN! Defense wins championships, and Lord knows we don't have much to talk about on Defense! I wish there was a poll choice to abstain from QBs in this Draft, or trade back to get one later in the 2nd, or 3rd if we are able.

It's a real shame that the two sides can't get together and iron out this labor deal. Then we might get the rumored trade of #5 to the Vikes, and re-coup some of what we gave up to get him.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;795102]Dalton will not last that long. Right now he's looking at being as high as the 24th pick (it's rumored that some teams are scared the Seahawks might take him so the 24th pick is being targeted for teams looking to trade up). And if he does make it to the second round I believe he'll be a top 5 pick...in the second round.

His pre draft stock is a good bit better then a similar prospect in Kolb who went 36th overall.[/quote]

Dirtbag you always ruin everything!!! Why! Well then if Kyle really sees something in Dalton trade up in the first to get him. I know it's risky but I'm crushing hard on jones at 10. No qb to me is worthy of a top 10 pick other then Gabbert..... SS ...have you heard any rumors of Mallet being linked to the skins at all ?? Like you SS im warming up to him. This is how threads vare off track I know......I always do this.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Nothing really legit, that I know of, is linking the Redskins to Mallet. And, I haven't warmed up to him to the point I'd want to draft him

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=30gut;795103]Going along with your premise...

This is a great question, but imo its a question that leads to other questions to answer adequately.

The HC should choose the QB especially when the HC is Mike Shanahan.

The bottom line for me is that the HC always has final say on personnel decisions.

A second and at least equal voice when it comes specifically to the QB position needs to be the OC.
The OC is ultimately the person in charge of the offense and the person that's gonna work the closet with the QB so its imperative that the OC be on board w/ the decision.

Then you have to consider the experience/respective track records with QBs and eye for talent at the QB position.

Imo there should be no question about who is the superior talent in this regard.

I believe that Mike S. could have coached the exact same personnel we had on offense last year and the results would have been better. And I believe that Mike can guide Kyle through the process of becoming not only a top OC but a potential HC candidate. But I digress.




















--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if I agree with all your premises. (mainly about how long and how big a factor the respective coaches tenures are to the decision making process)

I'm not privvy to the same information you are but I doubt the situation is as simple as Kyle likes QB X and Mike likes QB Y.

I think the dichomoty of the thought process behind who likes which QB must be much deeper then that.
But, back to the decision making process.

At the end of the day QB evaluation is pretty much universal, meaning that
if Kyle and Mike are grading out the QBs there rankings will be close.

One may like QB X a little more then QB Y but it wouldn't mean they dislike the [I][B]other[/B][/I] QB prospect.

The question for me boils down to value rather then who like which QB more.

Imo the difference and benefit between the way Kyle runs the offense vs Mike is that Mike's [I]requires[/I] or [I]excells[/I] under the direction of a QB w/ elite physical talent (i.e. velocity/mobility) where Kyle's offense does not require elite arm talent or mobility.

In most cases a good QB albeit less physically gifted can be found outside the 1st 2 rounds; which is a [I]good[/I] thing because it reduces the resources that need to spent on the QB position.

[I]But[/I] in this draft it appears that the cost for all QBs has been inflated by the demand to the point where the cost for a physically gifted QB may only be marginally more expensive then the cost of a QB w/ average physical skills.

If Locker and Dalton are closely rated by the passing game staff then the question comes down to how much they like to gamble:
the [U]certainty[/U] of a Locker a scheme diverse but raw QB with elite physical gifts QB they like at 10 vs [I][B]an extra pick[/B][/I]+ the highly likely possibility of scheme specific, more polished but less physically gifted QB the like in a trade down scenario (Dalton/Ponder) but a significantly reduced likelihood of Locker and also the possibility a wildcard QB like Mallett a more elite arm talent, polished QB that's more scheme diverse then the Dalton/Ponder.

My question is if they Dalton and maybe Ponder shouldn't they also like Ricky Stanzi?[/quote]

With that huge gap in your post, I hadn't even realized you wrote more.

It's certainly not as simple as one guy likes player X, and another likes player Y. But, for the purposes of this thread I made it such.

Who the QBs are that are being discussed really doesn't matter. I could have said Kyle Shanahan wants Drew Carey to be QB, and Mike wants Drew Brees. I would think most of us would say Drew Brees would be the better option. The question is who should be the one to pick which QB he wants?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

What happens if Vince Young is our QB?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;795113]What happens if Vince Young is our QB?[/quote]

Then we all die......

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;795113]What happens if Vince Young is our QB?[/quote]

What do u mean what happens ???

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

^ I mean as far as which type of QB would we draft? Kyle type or mike?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;795116]^ I mean as far as which type of QB would we draft? Kyle type or mike?[/quote]

It has to be Kyles type qb. It's his offense......but it seemed that daddy had alot of say in plays called and personal. More then usual anyway. I think it hurts Kyle as a coach having his dad as the head coach. I think Mike is too involved in the offense if u ask me. I know he's the head man but he should back off alittle.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;795116]^ I mean as far as which type of QB would we draft? Kyle type or mike?[/quote]

It won't matter. V Young will not be our QB before the draft.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;795079]Yeah, most ideal is someone they could all agree on. But reality is consensus picks rarely happen. There's always someone who makes the tie-breaking call. Or you agree that to defer your choice this time around to get yours next time around.

This is usually between the coach and general manager, not the coach and offensive coordinator.

But, here's another way to look at it I guess. Should Mike Shanahan, with ultimately the tie-breaking power, defer his opinion to Kyle Shanahan. Or should he go with his opinion and his guy because-as I said earlier-ultimately he's accountable for everything[/quote]

so how much say does Bruce Allen have? I'm sure he'd rather leave it to Mike and Kyle right?

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=backrow;795106]AMEN Bro. Rypper! AMEN! Defense wins championships, and Lord knows we don't have much to talk about on Defense! I wish there was a poll choice to abstain from QBs in this Draft, or trade back to get one later in the 2nd, or 3rd if we are able.

It's a real shame that the two sides can't get together and iron out this labor deal. Then we might get the rumored trade of #5 to the Vikes, and re-coup some of what we gave up to get him.[/quote]

Defense helps but this league is leaning towards offense more than ever. Our top 10 defenses got us in 2 wildcard rounds and not a damn thing else. And that was with a better offense.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;795111]Nothing really legit, that I know of, is linking the Redskins to Mallet. And, I haven't warmed up to him to the point I'd want to draft him[/quote]That's fair, have you heard anything to suggest they don't like him though?

This probably means nothing but someone I know attended a "Chalk Talk" event with Mike Shanahan on the March, 15th and asked him about Mallet. Specifically, the question was "Since you use a lot of roll outs would you draft a guy like Mallet in the second round even though he isn't very athletic but can get the ball down field?" He said,"Definetely, the running back takes care of the roll outs and it's just something we do to move the pocket. Mallet will be gone by the second round though."

Someone else asked the question, "Which three players impressed you the most at the combine?" Shanny's answer was "Julio Jones, Ryan Mallet, & Peterson."

[quote=SmootSmack;795112]With that huge gap in your post, I hadn't even realized you wrote more.....

The question is who should be the one to pick which QB he wants?[/quote]

Just wanted to respond to the OP in the first part and add my opinions on the situation in the second part.

But, to be clear I think Mike S. should pick the QB.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;795119]so how much say does Bruce Allen have? I'm sure he'd rather leave it to Mike and Kyle right?[/quote]

He brought us Joey Galloway, he gets no say!

Yeah, he'd rather leave it up to them

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Mie needs to choose the QB! Kyle hasn't earned the right. He needs to first prove that he can win with the HC's guy before getting final say.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

30Gut, I haven't heard anything to suggest they outright don't like anybody. At this point, I think they much pretty know what they want to do (subject, of course, to what others above them do), I don't think Mallet is in their plans...but what do I know? I was convinced there's no way they'd draft Laron Landry either

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I'd say neither cause neither is worth taking in the first two rounds. Also both Mike and Kyle might not be here is this team has a poor record next year.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I would hope Mike would defer to Kyle since it's his offense and he calls the plays.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

I would hope that Kyle listens to the wisdom of his more experienced father who has worked with John Elway, turned Jake Plummer into something semi-productive for a time, and led Jay Cutler to his best season as a pro.

I also hope that Mike is not so stubborn as to ignore the opinion of his young offensive coordinator who led the Texans to a top offensive season a few years ago.

Basically I want them to see the value in either QB, or any QB, and work together to figure out how to tailor their offense and their system to that QB's particular strengths. Flexibility is required because the draft will dictate which QB we end up with, to a large extent. If we end up with Locker, I hope Mike and Kyle both design plenty of plays to take advantage of his mobility and throwing on the run. If we end up with Dalton I hope we install some quick hitting plays to take advantage of the guy's intelligence.

Re: Whose QB Should We Choose?
 

Excellent post Schneed