"The Trade!"
 

If we had to do it all over again, do we trade Champ and a 2nd pick for Portis, or do we keep Champ, have Betts as the #1 guy, or pick up a free agent or use the 2nd round pick for a RB. Looking at the stats, there isn't much of a difference, Portis avg is 4.6 and Betts is 4.1. Betts is comparable to Steven Davis and when he was given a shot we all know what he did. I like Portis, dont get me wrong. I sometimes catch myself wondering what kind of team would we be had Champ stayed here. God knows we could have used him the last few weeks in pass coverage!

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champ is a bitch. I hate that guy, and he's the absolute most overrated player in the history of the NFL.

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[QUOTE=canthetuna]champ is a bitch. I hate that guy, and he's the absolute most overrated player in the history of the NFL.[/QUOTE]

Somebody is SALTY!!

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Champ is fine but honestly he's been VERY streaky lately. He's been making Pro Bowls on previous reputation alone.

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[QUOTE=#56fanatic]If we had to do it all over again, do we trade Champ and a 2nd pick for Portis, or do we keep Champ, have Betts as the #1 guy, or pick up a free agent or use the 2nd round pick for a RB. Looking at the stats, there isn't much of a difference, Portis avg is 4.6 and Betts is 4.1. Betts is comparable to Steven Davis and when he was given a shot we all know what he did. I like Portis, dont get me wrong. I sometimes catch myself wondering what kind of team would we be had Champ stayed here. God knows we could have used him the last few weeks in pass coverage![/QUOTE]

The piece of this puzzle that often gets forgotten is the salary cap ramifications of keeping Bailey. You'll recall, the guy was going to count like 8-10 million against our cap because he was labeled with the franchise tag. That was a cap hit that would put the team in dire straits that year. So the options were to trade Bailey away or sign him to a long-term deal. Thing is, the long-term deal Bailey wanted amounted to like $8 million a year. Now, that first year the cap hit probably would have only been $5 or $6 million or so. But it would have grown astronomically. I believe the Redskins were offering like $55 million over 8 years, and he ended up getting like $65 million or something from the Broncos.

You can't just analyze the trade in a vacuum because there are other circumstances surrounding it. Because we got rid of Bailey and signed Portis to a much more cap-friendly contract, we were able to sign Shawn Springs for 5 years, 30 million.

If you're just looking at the Bailey and a 2nd rounder for Portis piece in a vacuum, then I do think we would have been better off keeping Champ. But the trade didn't exist in a vacuum, Bailey's contract demands would have had long-term ramifications to the team. We wouldn't have Shawn Springs, and we never would have been able to afford the cap hit by trading L Coles, which as we all know brought us Santana Moss. That one worked out pretty well.

Deals like the Bailey/Portis trade have major ripple effects for years. The moves we were able to make this year and the moves we'll make next year are affected. In the end, the team is much better off in the long-haul having made the trade.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Champ is fine but honestly he's been VERY streaky lately. He's been making Pro Bowls on previous reputation alone.[/QUOTE]


Thats my point. he's a good corner, but when people talk about him they act like hes the stand alone greatest corner of all time. It irks me that he gets beaten deep constantly, and is not a physical player... and all of the media is all over this guy's jock.

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Champ did not want to be here. You can't keep a player who doesn't want to be here.

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I got the feeling that he didn't want to be here either. But alot of that is because of the constant roster overhaul and coaching changes. I do believe with the current regime he would have benefited from Greg Williams defensive scheme and made us a better defense. Smoot may have been more inclined to stay as well. I do believe with Champ and Smoot, Taylor and Clark or Bowen we would have had one of the best secondarys in recent memory. Nothing agianst Springs, who since being in Washington, has had probably the best year and half seasons since his 2nd and 3rd years in the league. The NFC east use to be, stop the run, smash people in the mouth and you win most of the games. But recently the NFC east teams have been more about the passing game and points than running the ball and winning with D. Giants, Dallas, and Philly all have good passing attacks now. Philly obviously is hurting right now, but if TO was playing and Donavan healthy they were pretty hard to stop.

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If you go back and look at this trade, what would we have at this point?

We'd have (an unhappy) CBailey, LBetts, CRogers, & a 2nd rounder. Instead we have SSprings, LBetts, CRogers, & CPortis. We got Springs via free agency which filled the void left by Bailey, so in the end, we basically traded a 2nd rounder for Portis. Denver may have gotten Bailey & that 2nd round pick, but we used FA to really suplement the deal to our advantage.

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[QUOTE=cpayne5]If you go back and look at this trade, what would we have at this point?

We'd have (an unhappy) CBailey, LBetts, CRogers, & a 2nd rounder. Instead we have SSprings, LBetts, CRogers, & CPortis. We got Springs via free agency which filled the void left by Bailey, so in the end, we basically traded a 2nd rounder for Portis. Denver may have gotten Bailey & that 2nd round pick, but we used FA to really suplement the deal to our advantage.[/QUOTE]

You never know- it might have been:

A happy (Gibbs magic) Bailey, Springs (instead of Smoot) CRogers, and a 2nd rounder (DE?) w/ Betts running (half the year due to injuries). I like what we have now.

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i like what we have now,also.i agree that champ bailey is big time over rated.did anyone see what t.o. did to him?dont come back with "he was playing hurt"to me,thats a convienent excuse.but then again,i never liked him when he was here

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I like Portis, but I said it then and I still feel that they gave up way to much for him. And that was proven correct this last offseason when Shawn Alexander and Edge who are both better than CP were both available for less than a 1st round pick. I don't love Bailey anymore either...I would have just taken a draft pick for him instead.

The skins jumped to quick to fill the RB slot when Gibbs returned. Even though we all like portis, you have to admit that Alexander or Edge would be a much better fit for the Gibbs running game. They have had to tweak their running plays to suit Portis and he still does better with the outside running plays...whereas Alexander looks to me like he was born to run the counter trey...

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it was either lose bailey, have him here unhappy, or trade. id take the trade.

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I like Portis too. I think he brings alot more to our team other than just running the ball. However, I do believe Shawn Alexander or E James would have been better in running our offense. Both can catch out of the back field, like Portis, but they are tougher runners inside the tackles. Plus they could run the ball more effectively inside the 10. Plus we may have been able to use our 1st round pick on a DE( demarcus ware, spears) and used the 2nd rounder on a corner. Although they may not have been as good as Rogers, but definately would have been decent enough to play nickel.

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this thing comes up every other month :P tired.

bailey wasn't going to stay here, springs played better than he did last year at under half the price. We could definately use better corner play right now, but getting rolle or dyson (both were good value) or even law would have been better than wasting a draft pick that could have gone to another position (DE) which weren't available in free agency. Corners have bad break in periods, just like WRs or QBs... DEs also tend to take time to ramp up, but this class has been pretty good early. I think the best corners from this draft came from the 3rd round anyways (as of their performances so far). Darrent williams (broncos) has played the best out of all of them.

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If, if, if... If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

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[QUOTE=canthetuna]champ is a bitch. I hate that guy, and he's the absolute most overrated player in the history of the NFL.[/QUOTE]

No he's not...when the NFL change the rules for not checking after 5 yards it made it hard on all DB's....no no...Charles Woodson is the most overrated in the NFL.....all time...come dude

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If we had Betts playing the role of Portis, aka starting back, then who would play Betts' current role? I don't think we should underestimate or undervalue the importance of having not one but two backs who could start for many, if not all, teams.

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Sultan McCullough! Duh.

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I still like the trade. If we didn't trade Champ. We wouldn't get those "Dallor Bill ,4 qtrs,10 dimes,20 nickels" press conferences ever thurs. ;) Who could stand that?

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To be honest, I think Shawn Springs is a better corner than Bailey. Springs virtually shut down T.O. twice last year. Bailey was getting torched by Amani Toomer, Joey Galloway, Antonio Bryant, and just about everyone else. Plus, Springs has a better attitude and wanted a LOT less money.

While I would have preferred a Portis-Bailey straight-up trade, I think it was a good move.

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[QUOTE=celts32]I like Portis, but I said it then and I still feel that they gave up way to much for him. And that was proven correct this last offseason when Shawn Alexander and Edge who are both better than CP were both available for less than a 1st round pick. I don't love Bailey anymore either...I would have just taken a draft pick for him instead.

The skins jumped to quick to fill the RB slot when Gibbs returned. Even though we all like portis, you have to admit that Alexander or Edge would be a much better fit for the Gibbs running game. They have had to tweak their running plays to suit Portis and he still does better with the outside running plays...whereas Alexander looks to me like he was born to run the counter trey...[/QUOTE]


Agreed, at the time if we were trading for a back I wanted Alexander as well, he came cheaper than Portis and is a better back, as well as a better fit for Gibbs system.

Although I would have rathered traded off Bailey for picks and taken either S.Jackson, or Jones from Detroit, and still had more picks left over for other needs, as it sits the the trade with Portis and Bailey could go down as the most overated deal in history.

And you are correct on Alexander's running style he is born to run the trey. Nice job Celt's!

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[QUOTE=offiss]Agreed, at the time if we were trading for a back I wanted Alexander as well, he came cheaper than Portis and is a better back, as well as a better fit for Gibbs system.

Although I would have rathered traded off Bailey for picks and taken either S.Jackson, or Jones from Detroit, and still had more picks left over for other needs, as it sits the the trade with Portis and Bailey could go down as the most overated deal in history.

And you are correct on Alexander's running style he is born to run the trey. Nice job Celt's![/QUOTE]

Yeah, you didn't think Portis would fit in Gibbs' system? Why's that?

Actually, the guy I kind of like is the one we'll be facing tomorrow-Lamont Jordan. But I'm quite happy with Portis on our team

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I like the thread. A couple of points:
[list=1][*]The Skins were [b]not[/b] going to keep Bailey. Both, Bailey's unhappiness with the team environment and the salary cap meant we were going to lose him. The question was do we release him and get nothing, or go for the best available option?[*]I don't buy that Edgerrin James or Shawn Alexander were available. Yes, they were at the end of their contracts, but I do not believe their teams had any intention of losing them. Most of that chatter about them being available "cheap" was posturing.[*]Clinton Portis was not happy in Denver. Match that with Mike Shanahan's view of RBs as interchangeable, along with the Bronco's crying need for a corner who could single-cover and you have the ingredients for a deal. Portis was the best available rusher at the time. This was a good deal for both sides. (actually Denver's draft choice loses value as the Redskins' record improves)[*]Gibbs does not use CP the way Denver did. He uses him like Riggo or Earnest Byner -- power thru the line. Edgerrin James excells at that, but he was not really available.[/list]Portis excells at cut backs and bouncing outside the line. He added weight, worked the offseason, came to camp and blocks effectively - everything the coaches ask of him. The running game issue is not with Portis. I suspect Shaun Alexander would get the same result if used the same way.

And why did we need a back in the first [email="#@^%"]#@^%[/email] place? Because a certain "inexpercienced" owner hired a genius college coach who had no skill evaluating NFL talent and whose offensive scheme had no use for a power rusher. How does Portis compare to Trung Canidate? That's the comparison to make. :stop:

What could Gibbs have done with Stephen Davis? Even though he's aging, if Davis were on the roster, I think Gibbs uses the Bailey trade to fill another hole.

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I'll just weigh in briefly on this discussion because it's been hashed and rehashed so much. Just like to make a few points here...

1. I don't think Champ is the savior Shanahan thought he would be. He is a good corner and good at forcing the run, but I don't consider him a 'shut-down' corner. He needs help over top for coverage too often and gets toasted on a regular basis.

2. Portis was a great cutback runner in Denver and as witnessed against the Bucs, he's still got the cutback quickness and speed. I think Portis has improved as a football player since being part of the Gibbs system because it has demanded him to be more to the team. He's responded to the challenge and is a much better blocker and stronger runner as a result.

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last year portis couldn't see blocks and ended up running into his linemen a lot, this year he's been much better waiting the two tenths of a second or whatever it is to get better blocking... we still have trouble up the gut when everyone knows we're running, but portis isn't a 260 bowling ball, so i'm not sure we can expect that of him as well as great outside speed...

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Talk about a topic that just won't die. Why don't we just take a vote and be done with it once and for all?

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[QUOTE=djnemo65]Talk about a topic that just won't die. Why don't we just take a vote and be done with it once and for all?[/QUOTE]

done that twice now i think. Its new people that missed the old thread and started a new one... over and over and over and over.

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[QUOTE=Ramseyfan][B]To be honest, I think Shawn Springs is a better corner than Bailey. [/B] Springs virtually shut down T.O. twice last year. Bailey was getting torched by Amani Toomer, Joey Galloway, Antonio Bryant, and just about everyone else. Plus, Springs has a better attitude and wanted a LOT less money.[/QUOTE]


I agree completley. I'm actually stretching to think of corners who have played better than Springs over the past two seasons. Now obviously, I dont watch anyone else like I do the skins, but Springs has been just about as close to a shutdown corner as you get.

Anyway you slice it, both teams ended up better for the trade. We both ended up with good corners and good running backs when it was all said and done. Altho I think our RB is a little bit better and RIGHT NOW our corner is a little bit better. Bailey will be in the league longer though.