The Line
 

I've been wanting to say this for a long time. The O-line is not very good. They are average. The D-line is really flawed. Our Defensive Ends are a joke. It's not even something to debate. The lines are the key to this game and we all know it. The problem with this team is the line. O and D. The line on both sides is B-league.

Re: O Line
 

You think they're THAT good? I don't...I think B League would be an improvement.

Re: O Line
 

the difference b/t the two lines is talent... the O-Line is suppose to be our strength, but we've got no playmakers on the D-line. Not sure if it's coaching or what for the O-line, but they aren't playing to their capabilities. but you can't really get mad at the D-line when they are probably playing to the best of their physical abilities. We just have to find a playmaking end in the off-season (too bad we don't have a first rounder next year).

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop]the difference b/t the two lines is talent... the O-Line is suppose to be our strength, but we've got no playmakers on the D-line. Not sure if it's coaching or what for the O-line, but they aren't playing to their capabilities. but you can't really get mad at the D-line when they are probably playing to the best of their physical abilities. We just have to find a playmaking end in the off-season (too bad we don't have a first rounder next year).[/QUOTE]


I agree, and what compounds our D line woes is the fact they have to play so many snaps because they can't get off the field. We can't generate a pass rush which enables the opposition to convert too many 3rd downs. Having to play 90+ snaps a game is far too many.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=itvnetop]the difference b/t the two lines is talent... the O-Line is suppose to be our strength, but we've got no playmakers on the D-line. Not sure if it's coaching or what for the O-line, but they aren't playing to their capabilities. but you can't really get mad at the D-line when they are probably playing to the best of their physical abilities. We just have to find a playmaking end in the off-season (too bad we don't have a first rounder next year).[/QUOTE]

I really think its a combination of things, from scheme all the way down to personal play. It just always seems like one of them is f'n up at one point or another.

Re: O Line
 

I don't think our offensive line has been all that offensive. It's not like Brunell was sacked 10, 5, 4, or even 3 times. Plus, the run-blocking was decent.

Why are people bashing the offensive line now? Because Robert Royal whiffed on a few blocks?

Re: The Line
 

[QUOTE=wilsowilso]The D-line is really flawed. Our Defensive Ends are a joke.[/QUOTE]

Hey, lay off the defensive ends. The fact that they have one combined sack through 10 games is [I]just part of the system[/I].

:rolleyes:

Re: O Line
 

I think it's because Brunell didn't have sufficient time most of the day. The sacks weren't there, but the pressure most certainly was.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I think it's because Brunell didn't have sufficient time most of the day. The sacks weren't there, but the pressure most certainly was.[/QUOTE]


I'm not so sure. It seemed, especially late in the second half, that receivers just weren't getting open. The go-routes to Jacobs all failed, Moss got shutdown, and Cooley started getting contained. While there certainly was pressure, it wasn't to the point that Brunell was being "harassed."

Are there any stats available for quarterback pressures?

Re: O Line
 

Brunell seemed to hang on to the ball an awfully long time on a lot of plays. I couldn't see whether the wideouts were getting open (as I was watching on TV), but he didn't seem to be under too much pressure.

So who exactly isn't doing their job on the O-line? Again, I think people are attributing blame to the O-line that should fall elsewhere.

Re: O Line
 

Seems to me like the O-Line tends to get tired and lazy when needed the most. Week in and week out they give up the big play to the other team. Not sure if Gibbs is going away from max protect or if the guys up front just don't have it in them to close out a game. I tend to watch the games more then once (for fun) but I notice Portis has to bounce and make his own plays most of the time. The D-line on the other hand is a walking nightmare. I could stand back there and throw the ball on this line.


P.S.
The thought of LA coming at me would make me crap my pants.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=Rockinganker]Seems to me like the O-Line tends to get tired and lazy when needed the most. Week in and week out they give up the big play to the other team. Not sure if Gibbs is going away from max protect or if the guys up front just don't have it in them to close out a game. I tend to watch the games more then once (for fun) but I notice Portis has to bounce and make his own plays most of the time. The D-line on the other hand is a walking nightmare. I could stand back there and throw the ball on this line.


P.S.
The thought of LA coming at me would make me crap my pants.[/QUOTE]


It's difficult for me to understand how you can max protect, run two man pass routes, and expect to get receivers open. Teams have been giving us trouble just rushing their front four, and at that rate you have seven other players to cover up two receivers, The odds just dosen't seem to be in our favor. That's why our QB has to hold the ball so long because usually there's no one open.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=Longtimefan]It's difficult for me to understand how you can max protect, run two man pass routes, and expect to get receivers open. Teams have been giving us trouble just rushing their front four, and at that rate you have seven other players to cover up two receivers, The odds just dosen't seem to be in our favor. That's why our QB has to hold the ball so long because usually there's no one open.[/QUOTE]

We should at least release Robert Royal and send him out on a pass pattern. Its not like he tries to block anyone anyways.

Re: O Line
 

dockery has got to go. he just doen't seem to br progressing and he's too reactionary and not enough of a dictator.

Re: O Line
 

i agree i dont know where this O line thing is coming from i really didnt see that much pressure....

Re: O Line
 

With Patten out, max protect doesn't work. Moss gets double and triple covered, and Brunell is forced to look elsewhere. The problem is Brunell is too comfortable with Moss, and has a hard time checking down. That, and his checkdown, Cooley, is starting to see more coverage as well. The guys who need to step it up now are Thrash and Jacobs. They both have decent speed to stretch the field.

The O-Line is doing a good job this year. Dockery is the weak link, but his potential far outweights the mistakes thus far. The entire line can't be all-pros.

The D-Line wasn't built to be a pressure line, and not having Griffin (the only pressure threat) is hurting them. Wynn and Daniels are solid guys, just not great pass rushers.

Re: O Line
 

I agree with this thread.

The #1 thing that stands out for me is the difference in pressure coming from both teams' front 4. Every play there's a guy in Brunell's face, and on the flip side, we send the house and get ZERO pressure. It's really starting to catch up with us.

We all know our D line is below average especially generating a pass rush, but I'm more disappointed in our O-line. This is supposed to be the strength of this team and they are inconsistent at best. Not even sure who the culprit is, seems like a different guy getting burned every week.

Re: O Line
 

wait a minute the last sack was jansen getting smoked by a linebacker.. number 56..

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=joethiesmanfan]wait a minute the last sack was jansen getting smoked by a linebacker.. number 56..[/QUOTE]jansen has been giving up a couple lately, he will come around or i'll send my boys to break his thumbs

Re: O Line
 

i am sure he will come around the skins are just inconsistant lately one week the defense dont show up the next week the offense dont show up..

Re: O Line
 

One thing is for sure, we need to get rid of Derrick Dockery, he sucks real bad. Our D-line is really missing Griffen right now. I really don't know why we don't rush Lavar more on the outside.

Re: The Line
 

[QUOTE=wilsowilso]I've been wanting to say this for a long time. The O-line is not very good. They are average. The D-line is really flawed. Our Defensive Ends are a joke. It's not even something to debate. The lines are the key to this game and we all know it. The problem with this team is the line. O and D. The line on both sides is B-league.[/QUOTE]


I was taught by many coaches that the game is won at the line of scrimmage. You could not be further from the truth. Our O line has been the reason for every sack that resulted in a fumble. Brunell can't be charged with holding on to the ball too long because he will throw it away. But when defenders are hitting him from his blind-side while Samuels is watching helplessly, its a shame. Chris Cooley has been horrible at blocking and yesterday was no difference. Cooley missed the block on Simeon Rice last week and threw his Gatorade cup in disguss because of his failure to protect. He has to play blocker as well as he catches the ball.

Re: The Line
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]I was taught by many coaches that the game is won at the line of scrimmage. You could not be further from the truth. Our O line has been the reason for every sack that resulted in a fumble. Brunell can't be charged with holding on to the ball too long because he will throw it away. But when defenders are hitting him from his blind-side while Samuels is watching helplessly, its a shame. Chris Cooley has been horrible at blocking and yesterday was no difference. Cooley missed the block on Simeon Rice last week and threw his Gatorade cup in disguss because of his failure to protect. He has to play blocker as well as he catches the ball.[/QUOTE]

Aren't you agreeing with wilsowilso that the O-line is a problem? And doesn't Jansen cover the blindside, not Samuels?

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=skins009]One thing is for sure, we need to get rid of Derrick Dockery, he sucks real bad. Our D-line is really missing Griffen right now. I really don't know why we don't rush Lavar more on the outside.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I totally agree with you about Dockery. Seems to me he's cut down drastically on holding and false start penalties.

In fact, the costly sacks this year have come on Jansen/Samuels. And against Oakland, one of Burgess' sacks was a missed assignment by, what I could see, Randy Thomas. And he constantly pressured from the outside.

I'm not a big Dockery fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I've made it a point to single him out this year and I think he's been solid at best.

Bottom line, we can nit-pick all day, but the line as a unit isn't playing well this year, especially late in the games.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=12thMan]I'm not sure I totally agree with you about Dockery. Seems to me he's cut down drastically on holding and false start penalties.

In fact, the costly sacks this year have come on Jansen/Samuels. And against Oakland, one of Burgess' sacks was a missed assignment by, what I could see, Randy Thomas. And he constantly pressured from the outside.

I'm not a big Dockery fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I've made it a point to single him out this year and I think he's been solid at best.

Bottom line, we can nit-pick all day, but the line as a unit isn't playing well this year, especially late in the games.[/QUOTE]great name i saw ur flag at the game sunday was awesome

Re: O Line
 

Our O-line was a trainwreck on Sunday.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=celts32]Our O-line was a trainwreck on Sunday.[/QUOTE]

How? The running game looked good. The passing game looked bad, but I think that was more of a reflection of no one getting open.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]How? The running game looked good. The passing game looked bad, but I think that was more of a reflection of no one getting open.[/QUOTE]
I'm with you on this one in fact portis is getting more yards every week... i really didnt see pressure well ok the last play but i didnt see the poor line play....

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]great name i saw ur flag at the game sunday was awesome[/QUOTE]

It's all about the 12thMan, baby.....:)

Re: O Line
 

i think we have a o line that is much more comfortable run blocking versus pass blocking.and getting on coach for only sending 2 receivers out on routes and not getting open,isnt that what they are paid to do?

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]How? The running game looked good. The passing game looked bad, but I think that was more of a reflection of no one getting open.[/QUOTE]

It was the worst game I have ever seen Jansen play for one. He got beat around the end several times. They made Burgess look like Reggie White. I know you watch the games closely Ramsey so i am not going to say otherwise, but I really thought the pass protection was terrible.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=celts32]It was the worst game I have ever seen Jansen play for one. He got beat around the end several times. They made Burgess look like Reggie White. I know you watch the games closely Ramsey so i am not going to say otherwise, but I really thought the pass protection was terrible.[/QUOTE]

I watched the game again celts and I noticed a few things about pass protection. First, you're absolutely right in saying that Burgess looked like Reggie White. Burgess had a heck of a game with two sacks and one forced fumble.

On Burgess' first sack he just ran over Robert Royal to get to Brunell. If Royal was assigned to block Burgess, that is a problem with the blocking assignments (which presumably comes down from the coaches) and not with the O-line (as Royal isn't an offensive lineman). On Burgess' second sack, he just went around Jansen. That sack was all on Jansen. However, it was also on 4th down in a passing situation. Moreover, I don't think it's right to judge an O-line based on a single, albeit critical, down.

Second, on several plays in which Brunell was pressured he had held the ball in excess of 5 seconds. I'm not going to say that Brunell holds the ball too long; he's pretty good about throwing the ball away when there is no one to throw to. But, I think a lot of heat generated on Brunell was the result of coverage. I don't think you can expect an O-line to hold up against a pass-rush for more than 4 or 5 seconds.

Third, by midway through the 3rd quarter Brunell had only been sacked once and knocked down twice. That's not too bad.

Fourth, while the Raiders' defense leaves a lot to be desired, their front four is pretty good. In fact, their defensive linemen have 18 sacks (as many as the Carolina Panthers' linemen have and 4 more than the Bucs' linemen have). They have Ben Hamilton and Derrick Burgess (who is second in the league with 9 sacks) on the edges and Warren Sapp (who is having a "comeback" year in the Raiders' new 4-3 defense) and Ted Washington on the inside.

Re: O Line
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]I watched the game again celts and I noticed a few things about pass protection. First, you're absolutely right in saying that Burgess looked like Reggie White. Burgess had a heck of a game with two sacks and one forced fumble.

On Burgess' first sack he just ran over Robert Royal to get to Brunell. If Royal was assigned to block Burgess, that is a problem with the blocking assignments (which presumably comes down from the coaches) and not with the O-line (as Royal isn't an offensive lineman). On Burgess' second sack, he just went around Jansen. That sack was all on Jansen. However, it was also on 4th down in a passing situation. Moreover, I don't think it's right to judge an O-line based on a single, albeit critical, down.

Second, on several plays in which Brunell was pressured he had held the ball in excess of 5 seconds. I'm not going to say that Brunell holds the ball too long; he's pretty good about throwing the ball away when there is no one to throw to. But, I think a lot of heat generated on Brunell was the result of coverage. I don't think you can expect an O-line to hold up against a pass-rush for more than 4 or 5 seconds.

Third, by midway through the 3rd quarter Brunell had only been sacked once and knocked down twice. That's not too bad.

Fourth, while the Raiders' defense leaves a lot to be desired, their front four is pretty good. In fact, their defensive linemen have 18 sacks (as many as the Carolina Panthers' linemen have and 4 more than the Bucs' linemen have). They have Ben Hamilton and Derrick Burgess (who is second in the league with 9 sacks) on the edges and Warren Sapp (who is having a "comeback" year in the Raiders' new 4-3 defense) and Ted Washington on the inside.[/QUOTE]

I didn't rewatch the game. I usually do but this one I couldn't stomach so i have only seen it once. I do remember the one play you mentioned where Royal got beat one on one and I agree it's not one you can pin on the o-line. I just had a sense watching the game that the pass protection was not up to par. I remember thinking during the game how badly Jansen was playing. Are you saying the only time he was beaten in the game on pass protection was on the last play?

I did notice that Brunell held the ball longer than usual on some plays which is an indictment of the WR's. Moss was doubled just about every play and TJ only had 19 yards so that says all we need to know about him. Basically, if you rewatched the whole game and do not think the pass protection was a big problem I will take your word for it. All I have to go on is my impression during the live game and I felt like they were bad.