F... gas prices

[Daseal]

Get used to it folks -- even if we drill, oil is only going to rise in price. It's supply and demand -- exactly what our capitalistic system is based of off. We've been stealing oil for years and made no attempts to find a renewable resource to use for energy. We squarely shot ourselves in the foot. India and China won't be looking for any less oil, and I doubt we'll touch the ANWR, which is where most of the domestic oil would be found.

We already drill in Alaska, but it's controlled and not in a national park. I've heard the argument "The people in Alaska are for it." Why wouldn't they be? They already don't pay taxes (the state picks up the tab) plus they get an 'oil check' once a year with the left over profits.

[onlydarksets]

The government regulates utilities, why not gasoline? Once the automobile became an integral part of the American economy, I think the government had a responsibility to oversee that it's future was secure.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think that there are no good alternatives to gasoline. The oil lobby (and, through it, the automobile lobby) has had a vested interest in riding this out as long as possible. The government decided to take a passive role and not set any timetables (like they did for broadcasters and HDTV). Evolutionary change is painful, but it's usually in the best interest of the future.

I will add that we are equally to blame by not demanding alternatives through the market. However, the alternatives have generally been beyond the financial reach of 95%+ of the households out there.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

The government regulates utilities, why not gasoline? Once the automobile became an integral part of the American economy, I think the government had a responsibility to oversee that it's future was secure.

I never claimed the government should not or does not regulate gasoline. The government undoubtedly regulates gasoline, both directly and indirectly. Those little stickers on the gas pumps are mandated by the government. The government taxes gasoline. Gas station owners are subject to a whole host of regulations. The government also indirectly regulates gasoline by subjecting oil explorers, producers, refiners, etc. to heavy regulation. The government regulates fuel efficiency standards in cars. I am just unclear as to how the government can regulate gas in a way that solves the problem that we are currently experiencing.

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

I think you are fooling yourself if you think that there are no good alternatives to gasoline. The oil lobby (and, through it, the automobile lobby) has had a vested interest in riding this out as long as possible. The government decided to take a passive role and not set any timetables (like they did for broadcasters and HDTV). Evolutionary change is painful, but it's usually in the best interest of the future.

Please name a single realistic alternative to gasoline. Just as the oil lobby "has a vested interest in riding this out," other large multi-billion dollar companies would stand to make trillions upon trillions if they could readily develop a cheap, efficient, and green alternative. So, I don't quite understand why people cite oil company conspiracy theories as the real reason why we haven't found an alternative to gas, when there are trillions of reasons why existing powerful companies have been, are, and will be exploring alternatives.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I never claimed the government should not or does not regulate gasoline. The government undoubtedly regulates gasoline, both directly and indirectly. Those little stickers on the gas pumps are mandated by the government. The government taxes gasoline. Gas station owners are subject to a whole host of regulations. The government also indirectly regulates gasoline by subjecting oil explorers, producers, refiners, etc. to heavy regulation. The government regulates fuel efficiency standards in cars. I am just unclear as to how the government can regulate gas in a way that solves the problem that we are currently experiencing.

Please name a single realistic alternative to gasoline. Just as the oil lobby "has a vested interest in riding this out," other large multi-billion dollar companies would stand to make trillions upon trillions if they could readily develop a cheap, efficient, and green alternative. So, I don't quite understand why people cite oil company conspiracy theories as the real reason why we haven't found an alternative to gas, when there are trillions of reasons why existing powerful companies have been, are, and will be exploring alternatives.

My wording was poor in my previous post. I'm not saying the alternatives exist in a viable form. I meant that there is no reason they should not exist, if the proper motivations were there over the past 35 years. That's the regulation that the government failed to provide - incentives to develop alternative fuels that actually motivate.

The past 10 years have proved beyond a doubt that America is absolutely and irrevocably dependent on oil. What other resource would we stand for a quadruple increase in price in such a short period? It is the government's responsibility to ensure scarcity isn't a problem for a resource that the government depends on to that extent.

It's also not as simple as some random company inventing a new engine and making trillions. The investment required to create an alternate fuel is a barrier to entry to almost every company out there. It would take a huge chunk out of even big oil. It's not just inventing a car that runs on corn, it's creating the infrastructure to allow people to get their corn refills (or whatever).

In the end, though, we are where we are, and that can't be changed. The government shouldn't get a free pass for not addressing the issue earlier, though.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

It's also not as simple as some random company inventing a new engine and making trillions.

It could be just that simple. Read this very interesting Newsweek article. I don't believe the process will be quick, cheap or easy, but with trillions of dollars to be made, the incentive and investment dollars are there.

Also, I'm not sure what role the government should play in this mess. Remember, our government is the one that tried to kill Castro with exploding cigars, couldn't deliver drinking water to Katrina victims, and pays $500 for toilet seats. What makes people optimistic that they can solve a problem that greedy multi-billion dollar companies can't?

[saden1]

Good news everybody...Shell, Exxon Mobile, Total, Chevron and BP are final stages of negotiating a no-bid contract with the Iraqi Oil Ministry. We're in for some treats.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

It could be just that simple. Read this very interesting Newsweek article. I don't believe the process will be quick, cheap or easy, but with trillions of dollars to be made, the incentive and investment dollars are there.

Also, I'm not sure what role the government should play in this mess. Remember, our government is the one that tried to kill Castro with exploding cigars, couldn't deliver drinking water to Katrina victims, and pays $500 for toilet seats. What makes people optimistic that they can solve a problem that greedy multi-billion dollar companies can't?

Now? Not much. This is a problem for the market to solve and the American people to bear in the interim (via high gas prices). I was speaking historically and from the perspective of, does it make sense to turn over more land (or off-shore rights) to the oil companies when they've shown so little interest, historically, in coming up with alternatives. I understand the economic argument for handing over the drilling rights, but I think it's short-sighted, because the current course is not sustainable and there has to be some incentive to change it.

Interesting article. There was also a National Geographic article a while back that discussed some of the hurdles to biofuels.

[htownskinfan]

this guy has the answer,our problems are solved,hes made gas out of water

[FRPLG]

Amory Lovins on winning the oil endgame | Video on TED.com

This guy has a great take on the issue and actually presents an argument of hope. I lvoe this site it has some great stuff.

[dmek25]

but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.

The problem has been that gas has been cheap so alternatives to gas have been to expensive. Why would we spend more for a car that burns on alternative fuels when we could buy the cheaper car which burns cheap gas. Now that gas has gone up like it has it makes alternative fuels more affordable. Even though oil co. sell oil if they could have found a cheaper alternative to oil they would have done so but gas was to cheap to compete with. Think about this. Would you invest in a Co. that says its looking for an alternative to gas but it will be more expensive and very hard to market? No. So while they have done research there was just not enough demand until the past year or so. I say we drill here at home but we force the Oils Co. drilling here to spend a certain percentage of profits on research. This will buy us some time and help control gas prices. This country has become what it is because we have been a leader in inventing new things (I don't really need to list them we all know). So I'm confident someone or some co. will find a solution to this problem and if they make millions or billions good for them.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by dmek25

but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.

I have been told that production from Iraq will increase and gas prices will decrease because of the supply and demand nature of the oil business. Are you tell me I'll be paying just as much at the pump? *gasp* It can't be..

[GTripp0012]

Being that the technology for an electric car existed in the 80's, I really can't see a scenario where some sort of alternative plan isn't already in place in some way or form.

Now, I realize that gas prices are going to have to carry out their course before it makes sense for energy companies to provide different methods of turning a profit, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a gradual evolution of the main sources of energy over the next ten years.

One big problem that I don't think enough people are talking about is whether our current power grids can support the massive transition from fossil fuels and natural gas to electric everything. Obviously, no matter what the source of energy is (nuclear, hydrogen, solar, wind, etc), it has to be converted into electricity to be useful to us. That, I think, is going to be the biggest challenge of moving away from oil and natural gas.

And I do think drilling in ANWR will help soften the transition a lot. I am not sure if its worth it though, maybe we do need a nice swift kick in the fact to wake us, as a people, up.

[70Chip]

When health care, drug policy, and many other topics are debated, you often hear people say "We're the only developed country that..." or "In Europe, they...". Well, we're the only country in the world that has decided to put it's own natural resources off limits. If we don't get the oil out of ANWR, the Russians will figure out a way to slant-drill it a-la Mr. Burns. This should be the easiest decision in the history of our government.

[BleedBurgundy]

As bad as it is here right now, I was listening to BBC radio the other day and they were talking about 5 GBP/liter. Converting GBP to $ and liter to gallon, that gives an equivalent price point of $37.28 per gallon. That is insane.