Tom "Iceman" Brady

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GiantsSuck703

I dont get your argument, your basically saying that no matter how many clutch games Tom Brady has won that in your mind its discredited because his defense helped him win those games, although you then say that its Peyton Mannings defense, not his awful play in big games that has kept him from winning superbowls. Which to me, means your using your extremely obvious bias towards Peyton as your excuse for him being the better player. Your wrong, this isnt a matter of opinion, your just flat out wrong, Tom Brady has won the meaningless games and hes won the important games, hes a gamer and a former sixth round pick who had all the odds against him when he came into the league and basically took it over, hes not the most physically gifted QB, but hes a great leader and will carve up defenses like its nothing, i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

How many clutch games has Tom Brady won? What defines a clutch game? Why am I wasting my time answering a post that contains only stuff I've already responded to?

In my mind, Brady's record is discredited SOME because he has such a great team. This arguement can be easily avoided by keeping all team stats out of it. Record, rings, all of the such. Work with Brady's stats, Brady's history, Brady's resume. If you want to work with outside the box stuff like contract numbers, and even arbitrary stuff like pro bowl apperences (as bad as that is), I can work with that. Compare that to Manning. After all, is that not what we are debating? Comparing Manning's record to Brady's record is like comparing apples to oranges. Very different conditions. Leave the 52 other members of the Pats out of this, and we can move on.

If you want to call him clutch, I'll live, but first:

1) define what makes it a clutch game. How much time is left, how many points are they down, etc...

2) actually show me how this makes him better than Manning.

i have seen nothing from Peyton Manning that makes me believe hes better than the 3-time superbowl champion Tom Brady.

OK. Hows this:

Tom Brady (Career): 1896/3064 61.9% 21564 yards 7.0 yards/attempt 147 TDs 78 INTs QB Rating 88.4

Peyton Manning (Career): 3131/4890 64.0% 37586 yards 7.7 yards/attempt 275 TD 139 INT QB Rating 94.4

Clear advantage Manning.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

In my mind, Brady's record is discredited SOME because he has such a great team. This arguement can be easily avoided by keeping all team stats out of it. Record, rings, all of the such. .

thats just plain stupid. so are we going to throw out some of mannings completions and passing yards and adjust his completion percentage because his recievers are,greatly, better than the patriots recievers. if we keep "all" stats out of it, then how do we determine who's better ? or do you just want to throw out the stats that favor brady ?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

thats just plain stupid. so are we going to throw out some of mannings completions and passing yards and adjust his completion percentage because his recievers are,greatly, better than the patriots recievers. if we keep "all" stats out of it, then how do we determine who's better ? or do you just want to throw out the stats that favor brady ?

That's the thing, NO stats favor Brady. Part of that is Manning's offense, but mostly it's because he's jsut better, plain and simple.

Honestly, how much of a difference do you think his recievers make? How many tackles do Harrison and Wayne break? Probably fewer than Graham and Watson. Can't prove it though.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That's the thing, NO stats favor Brady. Part of that is Manning's offense, but mostly it's because he's jsut better, plain and simple.

i don't understand your logic, maybe it's just me but you seem to want to discredit brady's stats, and yes there are plenty of stat in his favor, you choose to call them "team stats" but yet you want to give all credit to manning for his completions and his passing yardage and his qb rating when you know very well just as much credit should be given to his recievers.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

i don't understand your logic, maybe it's just me but you seem to want to discredit brady's stats, and yes there are plenty of stat in his favor, you choose to call them "team stats" but yet you want to give all credit to manning for his completions and his passing yardage and his qb rating when you know very well just as much credit should be given to his recievers.

But WHY should I see those team stats as anything more than having a superior team (as his team is quite obviously superior, evidenced by the wins)? What's your reasoning that they SHOULDN'T be discredited in a debate about individual players, not teams? Every other piece of evidence says that Manning outplays Brady. So why all of a sudden does Brady get more credit for doing less?

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But WHY should I see those team stats as anything more than having a superior team? What's your reasoning that they SHOULDN'T be discredited in a debate about individual players, not teams? Every other piece of evidence says that Manning outplays Brady. So why all of a sudden does Brady get more credit for doing less?

but isn't it reasonable for manning to have better stats in certain areas because he has superior recievers ? when you say "superior team" are you speaking of offense , defense or both because it is debatable as to which team has had the best offense over the past few seasons.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

but isn't it reasonable for manning to have better stats in certain areas because he has superior recievers ? when you say "superior team" are you speaking of offense , defense or both because it is debatable as to which team has had the best offense over the past few seasons.

Yes, its very reasonable to say that Manning's stats are improved by his offensive teammates. But I don't think it comes close to explaining the massive distance he continues to put between himself and Brady year after year. There's a small minute possibility that if Harrison and Wayne are the two greatest recievers ever, that it may explain the enitre gap in production.

I don't buy it. Harrison and Wayne don't help Manning out after the catch nearly as much as Santana does for us. Is Joseph Addai really a better runner than Dillion or Maroney? For that matter, was Edgerrin James really that much better? He hasn't been so hot in Arizona.

Players who leave Indy's offense traditionally don't have success other places. Who could blame them?