Jesus Camp:

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'm not being facetious. I simply don't think Christianity should get a pass, be it one passage or the whole book (i.e.Ezekiel). You can't simply ignore the Old Testament and pretend it is invalid. And while the New Testament is much tamer than the Old Testament, it is still contains inconsistencies (world is still 6000 years old).

Of course, if God in fact did create the universe, then any "hard" evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old isn't so hard anymore, now is it?

Again, this boils down to what Joe Redskin has been saying all along, that it's in many ways irresponsible and foolish to try to explain the infinate in terms of tangibility.

Down the road, we may quite possibly come to realize the true origin of all living things, attributable to something that isn't infinite. But at the very least, its certain that we are incapable in the present of such knowledge.

I actually think trusting incomplete scientific explination based on assumption and groupthink is just as if not more irresponsible than someone who believes blindly in religion (i.e. Jesus Campers).

That of course is discussion for another day and thread.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Of course, if God in fact did create the universe, then any "hard" evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old isn't so hard anymore, now is it?

My little brain hurts from trying to comprehend what you're trying to say. Please elaborate.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Again, this boils down to what Joe Redskin has been saying all along, that it's in many ways irresponsible and foolish to try to explain the infinate in terms of tangibility.

Basically, you just have to have faith and take it as it is.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I actually think trusting incomplete scientific explanation based on assumption and groupthink is just as if not more irresponsible than someone who believes blindly in religion (i.e. Jesus Campers).

I'm sorry but you can't equate science and faith. Science deals in theories and a set of principles aimed at proving or disproving a theory. Observable and measurable tests are conducted. We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

I'm sorry but you can't equate science and faith. Science deals in theories and a set of principles aimed at proving or disproving a theory. Observable and measurable tests are conducted. We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.

First let me say this, faith and science are, fundementally, not at odds. In fact, fundamentally they are similar, each seeks answers to questions. In fact, the thing that initially sparked my interest into the religion I finally joined, after a lenghty period of atheism, was a sign that said "Christ came to take away our sins, not our minds".

As for science, yup, advancements have occurred. But, for all our advancements, there are many things accepted by faith within the scientific community (often euphamisticly termed "assumptions") which in turn form the basis for or fill in the gaps of scientific theories.

The significant difference between science and religion is that religion, faith, and spirituality seek answers to questions that have no timeless "right" answer and they, inevitably, can only provide guidance in how to question and search for answers applicable to us individually, on daily terms and in our daily lives.

When science comes up with the answer to how we should best love our enemy, let me know.

Originally Posted by saden1

We have made progress with science, I can't say the same about faith.

It is clear that you cannot say the same b/c it is fairly apparent that you haven't done much in the way of examining "the state of faith" through the ages. As one who has as least done some examination of the matter, I would suggest to you that it is, in most of the established religions, significantly different than where it was even four or five hundred years ago.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by saden1

My little brain hurts from trying to comprehend what you're trying to say. Please elaborate.

Essentially, it is to say that all evidence of the age of the world, I.E. fossil, radiometric dating, and all other types, rely on an assumption that the universe was not intelligently created. For if it was, and bear with me, there are an infinate number of possible explinations to how that stuff came to be. Because of the infinate number of possibilities, that stuff has little meaning in terms of evidence.

It's reasonable to believe that the universe wasn't intelligently created, IMO, but only under the pretense that we do not have the answers currently. Science may very well make many more advances, but probably will never decide for or against faith. In fact, thats what faith is: the belief in the less than certain (Theory of Evolution for example). If it were cut and dry and clear, everybody would do it.

C'mon, we know from you're previous posts that you are way smarter than this. Don't let your arrogance and pride let your argument get out of hand.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Essentially, it is to say that all evidence of the age of the world, I.E. fossil, radiometric dating, and all other types, rely on an assumption that the universe was not intelligently created. For if it was, and bear with me, there are an infinate number of possible explinations to how that stuff came to be. Because of the infinate number of possibilities, that stuff has little meaning in terms of evidence.

It's reasonable to believe that the universe wasn't intelligently created, IMO, but only under the pretense that we do not have the answers currently. Science may very well make many more advances, but probably will never decide for or against faith. In fact, thats what faith is: the belief in the less than certain (Theory of Evolution for example). If it were cut and dry and clear, everybody would do it.

C'mon, we know from you're previous posts that you are way smarter than this. Don't let your arrogance and pride let your argument get out of hand.

Look, as I have said before there may very well be an all powerful entity that created us, the universe, and everything else we don't know about. Having said that I call b.s. on the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah (all 3 are based on each other). I call b.s. on Jesus, Mohamed, and Moses. I call b.s. on all the the far fetched stories. I call b.s. on the contradictions, lack of civility and humanism. I call b.s. on the fact that all of these holy men were born and raised in the middle east. Where are the Chinese born prophets? How about the fact that so many prophet are related? It feels like a family business.

This is what I have come to the conclusion of after much thought and struggle. It's not popular with believers but that's alright. This is about me what I believe.

p.s. I want to know who in here has no fear of hell? Fear of hell and the desire to go to heaven are integral part of most religion. After all you can't chill with Jesus/God and drink Pina Colada if you aren't in heaven.

p.p.s. We may disagree but I got nothing but love for you lot.

-Peace

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by saden1

Look, as I have said before there may very well be an all powerful entity that created us, the universe, and everything else we don't know about. Having said that I call b.s. on the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah (all 3 are based on each other). I call b.s. on Jesus, Mohamed, and Moses. I call b.s. on all the the far fetched stories. I call b.s. on the contradictions, lack of civility and humanism. I call b.s. on the fact that all of these holy men were born and raised in the middle east. Where are the Chinese born prophets? How about the fact that so many prophet are related? It feels like a family business.

This is what I have come to the conclusion of after much thought and struggle. It's not popular with believers but that's alright.

p.s. I want to know who in here has no fear of hell? Fear of hell and the desire to go to heaven are integral part of most religion. After all you can't chill with Jesus/God and drink Pina Colada if you aren't in heaven.

p.p.s. We may disagree but I got nothing but love for you lot.

-Peace

I am probably going to regret this, but I feel compelled to ask; what contradictions?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by angryssg

I am probably going to regret this, but I feel compelled to ask; what contradictions?

A List Of Biblical Contradictions

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by saden1

A List Of Biblical Contradictions

I am not going to argue this point with you, but here is some food for thought. If you take bits and pieces of any manuscript and pull them out of context you will have a much different picture than the one that is actually being presented in the writing. In all of those references you need to read the whole passage in order to understand what is actually being said. The only way to understand the Bible in it's entirety is to read the whole thing yourself. I am confident that if you were to read it all for yourself, you would have a much different point of view. I am not saying that you should, and I am not going to stop talking to you if you don't.

I do not believe in trying force what I believe to be true down other peoples throat, nor do I wish to debate with you on this topic. I am just trying to provide a little bit of what I believe to be insight on the matter. Have a nice evening.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

Look, as I have said before there may very well be an all powerful entity that created us, the universe, and everything else we don't know about.

Accepting then, that there MAY be such an entity - are you curious as to discovering the nature of such an entity? Would you accept that others were and devoted time and study to try and learn about it? That in learning about it, they would then seek to impart that knowledge onto others? Hmmmm.... I wonder how scholars and other followers might attempt to pass that wisdom on?

Originally Posted by saden1

Having said that I call b.s. on the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah (all 3 are based on each other). I call b.s. on Jesus, Mohamed, and Moses. I call b.s. on all the the far fetched stories. I call b.s. on the contradictions, lack of civility and humanism.

Oh look, all the manners in which knowledgable and/or wise people would try to impart, guide or otherwise teach those who come aftter them. Other than "lack of civility and humanism", and as I have said before, each of the things and people you call b.s. on were trying to pass on knowledge of the infinite.

I'm sorry - I can't get pass your inability to grasp the concept that "contradictions" are a necessary part of describing infinite concepts. Those "far-fetched" stories in most cases are poetry and symbolism. If you want to see what, exactly, the Christian faith believes - read the Nicene Creed. That was the "set of beliefs" agreed upon by all those who called themselves Christians when the Christian church spoke with one unified voice (and guess what - it was created through debate, political interference, and contention by a bunch of humans).

As for the quoted "contradictions" - please - go to take a course on comparitive religious literature or even a secular course on Bible study. The errors, ommissions, and assumptions in that list is so f***ing long it would take, well, a semester or two to straighten out.

Originally Posted by saden1

I call b.s. on the fact that all of these holy men were born and raised in the middle east. Where are the Chinese born prophets? How about the fact that so many prophet are related? It feels like a family business.

I think followers of Buddha would disagree. "Chinese prophets"? - probably many in the various versions of Zen Buddhism and China. If you're talking limiting yourself to prophets from Judaic and Christian tradition, well, that's more of a history lesson than a theology lesson.

Originally Posted by saden1

This is what I have come to the conclusion of after much thought and struggle. It's not popular with believers but that's alright. This is about me what I believe.

Sounds like a leap of faith to me.

Originally Posted by saden1

p.s. I want to know who in here has no fear of hell? Fear of hell and the desire to go to heaven are integral part of most religion. After all you can't chill with Jesus/God and drink Pina Colada if you aren't in heaven.

I have no "fear" of hell in the traditional fire and brimstone imagery. I fear that through my failure to fully live and be one with God during my lifetime that I will be unable to experience that oneness after death. It is not, however, this fear that drove me to God. Instead, as I learned more, I realized, as I said somewhere earlier, that I wanted to be part of the rhythym and beauty of the infinite. The fact that "hell" exists (and in my mind is more a state of existence than a place) was more a realization I came to then a motivational force in my case.

Originally Posted by saden1

p.p.s. We may disagree but I got nothing but love for you lot.

-Peace

Back atcha.

Peace be with you.