Does prayer work?

[djnemo65]

Well the definitive study to date was not able to demonstrate any efficacy for focused prayer. Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer - New York Times

I am uncertain about the potential for prayer to work, just because their is so much about the human mind we don't understand. However, I have a tough time believing there is some God listening to each prayer and capriciously deciding which to answer. After all, if there is someone up there who allowed 6 million Jews to be killed during WW2 but can take the time to fill up someone's stove, that's someone I can't really roll with.

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

My Grandaddy said once..."If God came down and explained it to you yer tiny human mind could still not understand."

In some parts that sounds right but really God is so awesome if He explained it to you, you would understand. Tough part is He does not.

When He gave us Free Will which gives us the choice to reject Him, He also gave us Faith to Trust in Him. I got no "proof" God answers prayers.

If I may add what I have ben taught about Prayer comes in Red Letters. Jesus said when praying give God His due and God, it say ask for forgivness for falling short of His Glory, He says the give thanks for our simple means and ask to be not led into sin. Then in a small part it's an "ask for me" thing. "Give us this day our daily bread".

Then He says to ask for God to have His Will, not ours. God has great plans for jsarno and it's right for jsarno to be looking to care for his family. But how much more is God looking for the best for his family? Much more I say and I believe.

I think if we think of prayer as a "Give me, look at me, help me" thing we fall short of what God wants. Prayer is a way of getting in line with God and not having God get in line with us.

If God gets in line with me were all in trouble.

Hang in there folks and keep the faith if'n ya have it so far.
~smiles!
peace

Maybe you should email Coach Gibbs. He'll tell ya to keep the Faith man!
mike

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

I want to say thanks to you guys. The topic ignites much on both sides of believing on God and ya'll said yer thoughts and didn't put others down. That rare in forums.

Bravo and thanks for the respect on all sides

[Schneed10]

Philosophically speaking, I actually don't like the idea that prayer works.

Let's say I wanted to become a professional golfer. I quit my day job, I work my tail off by practicing 8 hours a day, I eat well, I pay for lessons, I pay for the best equipment, and I even pray a little. And let's say after 5 years I finally make it on tour, and even place in the top 10 in a tournament. To think that the prayer could be responsible for my success and happiness would seriously piss me off. It was my hard work, my blood and sweat that got me there. To think God was responsible, I don't like that idea.

That's a hypothetical. But success in my current career, success in my marriage, success in having a harmonious and happy family; I'd be real pissed if that was God doing that. I made all of those things happen, along with help from my family. God gave me the free will to make choices. I chose to work hard and surround myself with good people. He deserves no credit beyond credit for giving me free will, I did the rest.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Philosophically speaking, I actually don't like the idea that prayer works.

Let's say I wanted to become a professional golfer. I quit my day job, I work my tail off by practicing 8 hours a day, I eat well, I pay for lessons, I pay for the best equipment, and I even pray a little. And let's say after 5 years I finally make it on tour, and even place in the top 10 in a tournament. To think that the prayer could be responsible for my success and happiness would seriously piss me off. It was my hard work, my blood and sweat that got me there. To think God was responsible, I don't like that idea.

That's a hypothetical. But success in my current career, success in my marriage, success in having a harmonious and happy family; I'd be real pissed if that was God doing that. I made all of those things happen, along with help from my family. God gave me the free will to make choices. I chose to work hard and surround myself with good people. He deserves no credit beyond credit for giving me free will, I did the rest.

Why is it OK to thank your family for help, but not God?

I have a great relationship with my wife because God is in focus for both of us. God helps us have a great relationship. I don't begrudge him for that. Sure I looked for a certain type of woman, and I have worked hard to have a great relationship with her, but I'll give credit to God too for helping us. It doesn't take anything away from what I did.
I'd gladly give God credit if he wanted to make me the next Tiger Woods. Ultimately, I would still have to practice and work at it, but I could see it as "we are working together".

[saden1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Why is it OK to thank your family for help, but not God?

Because they're willing to physically care for you if you're bed ridden? What I mean is they are real and they can provide measurable physical support. You know exactly what you're going to get from them.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by saden1

Because they're willing to physically care for you if you're bed ridden? What I mean is they are real and they can provide measurable physical support. You know exactly what you're going to get from them.

Uh oh...I should have never posed that question because this thread will become a religious debate.

[saden1]

Lets put it another way:

a) If two people are standing in front of a door you're about to go through and one of them holds the door open for you who do you thank?

b) You are ill, your church patrons get money together to help you out in your time of need, who deserves to be thanked?

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed, but when good things happen he gets all the credit. Sounds like double standard to me.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by saden1

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed,

I think thats the hard part about faith... our perception of bad and God's is pretty different. We fear death, so genocide, massacres, terrorists attacks, etc... are horrible things to us... but everyone dies. Those with the most faith do not blame god for anything... he didn't drop the ball.

Those who are truly faithful actually thank God, even during the hardest times. I've seen people giving praise on their on children's death beds. Thats faith. I don't know if I would have that in me, but that's when true faith is shown...

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Lets put it another way:

a) If two people are standing in front of a door you're about to go through and one of them holds the door open for you who do you thank?

b) You are ill, your church patrons get money together to help you out in your time of need, who deserves to be thanked?

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed, but when good things happen he gets all the credit. Sounds like double standard to me.

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

Exactly, that's all it boils down to. And I think that's the way He intended for it to be. While prayer is practical in practice and exercise, there's really not much logical about it. And one's failure to attain the logic of praying or believing in the first place, is where faith comes in. Because you have no hard core evidence that God exists, much less that He heard you when you prayed. So the only evidence that you do have is your faith; your core convictions based on what you've read, heard, and other wise personally experienced over time.

Which leads me to something interesting here. When I listen to people argue both sides of this subject. They both are suggesting that their side is more or just as logical as the other persons. But I've come to understand, I think, that we're really dealing with two types of "logic" here. There's textbook logic, and then there is a logic that, well, people are just as convinced about without having any evidence to back it up. Now I know by definition, the latter really isn't logic. But you've heard people talk and explain things about their faith as if God was sitting right next to them typing on that key board. When people say they know God exsists or that prayer works and how it works, as far as they're concerned their "logic" is based on a different set of realities outside of hard facts or text book logic. I'm rambling a bit now, but I think you get my point.

[Sammy Baugh Fan]

I won't debate religion in this thread or at this site.

The guy said he believes in God and he says he prays please don't try to put down his beliefs and prove them wrong. The guy is asking for some help and support are you helping or hurting him?

I disagree with where the above person would give credit. I personally would give credit to God and thanks those people for being God's on the ground hands and feet.

Last month at Walter Reed I was serving God through serving food to them wounded soldiers. I was blessed that God used me of all people to do some of His good works.

That's my faith and I'm sticking with it.
peace, faith and love and the greatest is LOVE
<><

[saden1]

Pharyngula: Kathy Griffin is my new hero

Edit: wrong link