Does prayer work?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Lets put it another way:

a) If two people are standing in front of a door you're about to go through and one of them holds the door open for you who do you thank?

b) You are ill, your church patrons get money together to help you out in your time of need, who deserves to be thanked?

All I'm saying is give credit where it's due and like I said before when bad things happen god never gets blamed, but when good things happen he gets all the credit. Sounds like double standard to me.

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah these are the exact philosophical questions I'm driving at.

Let's assume God exists and has the power to grant me the athletic ability to become a professional golfer. But I still did all the work over 5 years to actually get there. Does he get some credit? I guess so, he gave me the athletic ability. I deserve some credit too, because I took that ability and worked hard with it, and turned it into success in professional golf. Now let's say I come down with back problems. If God gave me a body athletic enough to play golf professionally, and I give him credit for that, doesn't he deserve some blame for giving me a body that couldn't hold up for the long haul in professional golf?

He doesn't get to have it both ways.

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Well, who says He's trying to have it both ways? One's body breaking down or ailing has nothing to do with God's goodness or his judgement. It's simply nature taking it's course.

Bodies like everything else give way to time and wear and tear. For God to defy the natural laws that govern this side of eternity, if you will, violate the very laws that He set in motion and violate his own authority in some way. There are laws that operate in time and there are laws that operate outside of time. By time I mean, the right here and now as we all know it. And by outside of time, I'm referring to eternity. But therein lies where we agree to disagree, and this is where faith and prayer becomes and will forever remain a mystery, one has to believe in something and someone on the other side of this life. Once that notion is settled, now we're in business and the idea of prayer and faith is somewhat attainable. It really is the starting point.

Faith/Prayer is much like a coin. For it to be legitimate currency and legal tender, it has to have what we call a "head" and a "tail". Well that's how prayer works, there is a manward side; man doing his part. Flip it over and there is Godward side to it; God doing his part. For it to "spend" and be considered "legal" in our society, the coin must have two different sides or else it's considered conterfeit. And I think this is the conclusion many believers and non-believers jump to. Some say, well God should deliver me from this and that or God didn't do this or that and they conclude He doesn't exist or they doubt. And then some will say for me to get to point B in life, I must do everything and be in control of everything in order to get there. Leaving no room for God to operate or take a majority stake in their life. It takes a little of both.

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah you said it - it all starts with the assumption that there is a God in the first place. Which is all based on belief. That's what the question on prayer comes down to.

Do you believe He exists, or don't you? If you work hard to be the pro golfer, and you believe in God, and you pray to him, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe he had a hand in it.

If you don't believe in God, and you don't pray, but you work hard to be a pro golfer, and you make it as a pro golfer, you're going to believe you had everything to do with it and that God had no hand in it.

Either way, you worked hard and you made it as a pro golfer. The only role God could possibly play is to make you BELIEVE or FEEL that he had a role. But can you prove he actually had a role? No. That's at the very core of faith - you have to jump to the conclusion (aka leap of faith) that He helped you.

So at its very core, this debate over prayer comes down to one thing: do you believe in God?

Exactly, that's all it boils down to. And I think that's the way He intended for it to be. While prayer is practical in practice and exercise, there's really not much logical about it. And one's failure to attain the logic of praying or believing in the first place, is where faith comes in. Because you have no hard core evidence that God exists, much less that He heard you when you prayed. So the only evidence that you do have is your faith; your core convictions based on what you've read, heard, and other wise personally experienced over time.

Which leads me to something interesting here. When I listen to people argue both sides of this subject. They both are suggesting that their side is more or just as logical as the other persons. But I've come to understand, I think, that we're really dealing with two types of "logic" here. There's textbook logic, and then there is a logic that, well, people are just as convinced about without having any evidence to back it up. Now I know by definition, the latter really isn't logic. But you've heard people talk and explain things about their faith as if God was sitting right next to them typing on that key board. When people say they know God exsists or that prayer works and how it works, as far as they're concerned their "logic" is based on a different set of realities outside of hard facts or text book logic. I'm rambling a bit now, but I think you get my point.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Exactly, that's all it boils down to. And I think that's the way He intended for it to be. While prayer is practical in practice and exercise, there's really not much logical about it. And one's failure to attain the logic of praying or believing in the first place, is where faith comes in. Because you have no hard core evidence that God exists, much less that He heard you when you prayed. So the only evidence that you do have is your faith; your core convictions based on what you've read, heard, and other wise personally experienced over time.

Which leads me to something interesting here. When I listen to people argue both sides of this subject. They both are suggesting that their side is more or just as logical as the other persons. But I've come to understand, I think, that we're really dealing with two types of "logic" here. There's textbook logic, and then there is a logic that, well, people are just as convinced about without having any evidence to back it up. Now I know by definition, the latter really isn't logic. But you've heard people talk and explain things about their faith as if God was sitting right next to them typing on that key board. When people say they know God exsists or that prayer works and how it works, as far as they're concerned their "logic" is based on a different set of realities outside of hard facts or text book logic. I'm rambling a bit now, but I think you get my point.

Yeah that's definitely stretching the definition of "logic", so I'm glad you put it in quotes. Logic is based on premises that can be, or have been, proven.

But to people who believe in God, the premise that He exists is not at all in doubt, even though it cannot be proven. So to them, God's existence is fact.

One good thing; I suppose we'll all find out who was right about his existence on the day we die.