Should Joe Gibbs be let go or retire?

[70Chip]

Does everyone understand that at some point we have to hold the players accountable for how they play? Perhaps part of the reason they keep making the same mistakes is that all the heat is focused on Gibbs and they continually skate. The game is played on the field. Gibbs has made some mistakes, but the players have made a lot more. Those guys have it pretty sweet it seems to me. They get paid millions, deliver nothing, and Coach Gibbs shoulders all the scrutiny. The ass clowns will be lined up around the block again this off-season hoping for a contract to play for the Washington Redskins - the easiest gig in football.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Does everyone understand that at some point we have to hold the players accountable for how they play? Perhaps part of the reason they keep making the same mistakes is that all the heat is focused on Gibbs and they continually skate. The game is played on the field. Gibbs has made some mistakes, but the players have made a lot more. Those guys have it pretty sweet it seems to me. They get paid millions, deliver nothing, and Coach Gibbs shoulders all the scrutiny. The ass clowns will be lined up around the block again this off-season hoping for a contract to play for the Washington Redskins - the easiest gig in football.

I heart you

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I heart you

Right back at you slick. (And by the way, I love me some channel 208)

[SC Skins Fan]

One issue with cleaning house that I have not heard addressed (which doesn't mean it hasn't been addressed) is what happens to Jason Campbell. Anecdotally at least, it seems that often times when a team changes course early on in the development of a young QB that QB drifts off into oblivion. The group that drafted him, had faith in him, and had staked their reputations to him are gone and the proverbial chain tends to get a lot shorter. The new staff will sometimes bring in their own guy, who they want to develop, and they just aren't willing to weather the storms with someone else's choice. Obviously if Gregg Williams were to take over it would be different, but other than that what happens?

Two that come to my mind immediately are J.P. Losman and Phillip Rivers (err, Pat Ramsey?), and maybe I'm extrapolating too much, but it just seems that when teams change direction before a young QB has really established himself it doesn't work too well for the QB.

Edit: and add Matt Leinart this season prior to his injury.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

One issue with cleaning house that I have not heard addressed (which doesn't mean it hasn't been addressed) is what happens to Jason Campbell. Anecdotally at least, it seems that often times when a team changes course early on in the development of a young QB that QB drifts off into oblivion. The group that drafted him, had faith in him, and had staked their reputations to him are gone and the proverbial chain tends to get a lot shorter. The new staff will sometimes bring in their own guy, who they want to develop, and they just aren't willing to weather the storms with someone else's choice. Obviously if Gregg Williams were to take over it would be different, but other than that what happens?

Two that come to my mind immediately are J.P. Losman and Phillip Rivers (err, Pat Ramsey?), and maybe I'm extrapolating too much, but it just seems that when teams change direction before a young QB has really established himself it doesn't work too well for the QB.

Edit: and add Matt Leinart this season prior to his injury.

Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Ben Roethlisberger (4th season), Peyton Manning (5th season), Tony Romo (5th season), Drew Brees (6th season), all flourished under new coaching, but I see your point. My list of guys are considerably older than your list of guys.

Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine.

I'm not taking issue with your post, just building from it because it made me think a bit.

- Roethlisberger (Good point, especially with his struggles last season, but he had already won a Super Bowl)
- Manning (already had been to multiple Pro Bowls, well established)
- Romo (I hate that he is the exception to all these things, but after watching him play a little more now I actually kind of think that he is going to return to the pack since I've seen him make some really bad throws that still get completed, but we'll put him aside)
- Drew Brees (this is the one I want to pick up a bit below)

Brees is a different case since he changed teams and was a pretty big FA signing for NO and they were going to ride with him so long as he was healthy. By the time he signed there he'd throw for 3,000 yards three times and had made at least one Pro Bowl. I'd like to back up for a second, though, and look at Brees between his second and third seasons.

In 2002 Brees had numbers that probably look pretty similar to those Jason will end up posting this season (60.8%, 3,284 yds, 17 tds, 16 ints, 76.9 rtg). 2002 was also the first year that Marty was the coach in SD. The next season Brees did not play very well (57.6%, 2,108, 11 tds, 15 ints, 67.5 rtg). That year the Chargers drafted Eli and then moved him in that deal for Phillip Rivers. Now, if the team had also fired Marty and moved in a new direction totally, what would have become of Brees? Of course, Rivers didn't help himself by holding out for the entire training camp and thus allowing Brees to claim the job, but I also wonder if another coaching staff that had not seen Brees perform in 2002, would have stuck with him through 2003 (and A.J. Smith basically bailed on him anyway with Rivers, who was his guy, while Marty seeming stayed behind Brees). As it turned out, in 2004 Brees posted his best numbers to that point (65.5%, 3,159, 27 tds, 7 ints, 104.8 rtg) and made his first Pro Bowl, but what if...

Your point that "Seems like there is something there that unestablished great QB prospects regress in a new offense in the short term, but in the long term they seem to be just fine" is well taken. The larger point, though, is that often times when you get a new coach the QB isn't given the opportunity to get to the point of being 'just fine' because the team moves on and fails to realize that the likely downturn in production is probably a product of having to learn a new offensive system and deal with a new coaching staff.

Just some thoughts.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Does everyone understand that at some point we have to hold the players accountable for how they play? Perhaps part of the reason they keep making the same mistakes is that all the heat is focused on Gibbs and they continually skate. The game is played on the field. Gibbs has made some mistakes, but the players have made a lot more. Those guys have it pretty sweet it seems to me. They get paid millions, deliver nothing, and Coach Gibbs shoulders all the scrutiny. The ass clowns will be lined up around the block again this off-season hoping for a contract to play for the Washington Redskins - the easiest gig in football.

What you just described is an example of a coach not doing his job getting players ready or motivated to play. I can only think of one player that Gibbs let go drun the season because of poor play on the field. I think his name was Brown something the WR we were using as a return man and he fumbled twice in a game.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by firstdown

What you just described is an example of a coach not doing his job getting players ready or motivated to play. I can only think of one player that Gibbs let go drun the season because of poor play on the field. I think his name was Brown something the WR we were using as a return man and he fumbled twice in a game.

No. What I am describing is an attitude among the fans that it's never the fault of the players. Why should they care how they play when they know that they can turn the ball over 6 times and people will still spend the whole week talking about Gibbs decision to go for it on 4th and 1? For that matter, why should they care wether or not they even get the 4th and 1? We can have all these Fire Gibbs! threads, they are unavoidable. What boggles my mind is why there aren't an equal number of threads directed at players. There are people in here still defending Brandon Lloyd, for crying out loud.

Also, he cut Walter Rasby mid-season in 2004.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

No. What I am describing is an attitude among the fans that it's never the fault of the players. Why should they care how they play when they know that they can turn the ball over 6 times and people will still spend the whole week talking about Gibbs decision to go for it on 4th and 1? For that matter, why should they care wether or not they even get the 4th and 1? We can have all these Fire Gibbs! threads, they are unavoidable. What boggles my mind is why there aren't an equal number of threads directed at players. There are people in here still defending Brandon Lloyd, for crying out loud.

Also, he cut Walter Rasby mid-season in 2004.

I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I think just about everyplayer on this team has had a bash them thread except for I think Cooley. The problem is we have ran out of players to bash and now its falling on the coaching staff and most of all Timeout, Timeout Gibbs. Sorry I had to do that.

No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.

What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

What is the equivilant in your business of winning 3 Lombardis and (is it?) 3 cups?

I have no idea

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

No you didn't. And I really don't think we "bash" players nearly enough. We don't even "bash" the other coaches. But hey, it is what it is. I hope to one day be as successful as Gibbs has been in his career so everyone can try to knock me down as well.

I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I'm very surprised that you have missed all of the bashing of players and coaches as much as you post on this site. Its like after every loss and even after some wins the bashing starts. If you look at my post over the past four years I have done nothing but support JG and this team. When everyone was bashing I was thinking positive and hoping that things would change. Those two timeouts did not bother me one bit it was those three running plays when we had not been able to run the ball all day and just needed one first down to win. Gibbs went to the same old plays which if we could go back over the past 3 to 4 years and could see how that jumbo line has performed we could probably have a 20 yard pass that gained more yards than the 30 to 50 time they have run that failing jumbo package. Gibbs has just shown no signs of changing the thing that do not work and keeps doing them over and over again. Then add up all the errors the coaching has done over the years and I just think its time to move on. Like I said if Gibbs stays for another year he has my full support and I would love for him to prove me wrong.

Well see, you illustrate my point right there. Does Saunders calls the plays or does he not? As soon as we see a running play, everyone instinctively says "Oh well that's Gibbs handcuffing the team again." But is he even calling the plays there?

I think only person here has even made any mention of the fact that the defense gave up a 30 yard pass right down the middle to set up the game-winning field goal by the Bills. Where's the outcry over that? Where's the outcry over half the offensive line false starting at a critical 4th and 1 (I think that's what it was) in the red zone on the first drive? Things like that, when they are on this site, are usually buried in threads.

Look I'm not saying absolve Gibbs of any blame. I'm just echoing 70Chip's well-founded sentiments that more needs to go the players way. You win as a team, you lose as a team.