With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...

[30gut]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I keep hearing mixed reviews on Fowler..

There will be mixed reviews about every prospect. They all have their pros and cons. Even for evaluators that agree on a players attributes they might have their own preferences for which attribute is more important.
Size or speed, production or potential, "pro-readiness" vs physical skillset, scheme vs production etc....

Personally for me I always keep in mind that if any prospects make it in the NFL players they have to become better players then they were in the college and for me physical skill set (which we try to judge as arm chair GMs) in addition to coach ability/mental make-up (which we can't judge and even NFL teams struggle to judge) go a long way in decision making.

When it comes to pass rushers I like the bigger body type guys in general. It drives me nut to see a RB stone a pass rusher and that should happen less often with a big body pass rusher.

[Skins4L]

I think Fowler would be a great choice. I just want the best available on defense imo. Best pure talent ready to ball. Whoever falls they like.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

La'el has got our next RT written all over him. That's only in case of trade back, but if we do, that's who I want.

[JoeRedskin]

Scot McC on Scot McC:

“Everybody says, ‘Well you need this, this, this and this,’ which I understand,” he said. “You know, a lot of times in pro free agency, you can address those needs a little bit, but I learned from Ron Wolf early on, I learned from Ted Thompson early on, I learned from John Schneider, you can never have enough good football players on your team. If you keep adding that, you’re going to have your couple of two, three superstars that are going come out and become stars.”

McCloughan's mentor 'adamant' about not drafting for need | Comcast SportsNet Washington

[FRPLG]

My feeling is that if we come up and the BPA is a guy that clearly isn't a need...like WR in my opinion...then we aggressively pursue a trade-back. Get value for our pick equivalent to picking said BPA. If we can't get an acceptable trade-back then roll BPA and know that rolling BPA in the long run should give you a stud team.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

My feeling is that if we come up and the BPA is a guy that clearly isn't a need...like WR in my opinion...then we aggressively pursue a trade-back. Get value for our pick equivalent to picking said BPA. If we can't get an acceptable trade-back then roll BPA and know that rolling BPA in the long run should give you a stud team.

Agree 100%.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Agree 100%.

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If your boy is truly a Top 5 prospect and probably the BPA at #5, don't you want SM to draft him in accordance with your draft philosophy? If he trades down because WR isn't a position of need then he is essentially drafting for need when he picks the OT. N'est ce pas?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. If your boy is truly a Top 5 prospect and probably the BPA at #5, don't you want SM to draft him in accordance with your draft philosophy? If he trades down because WR isn't a position of need then he is essentially drafting for need when he picks the OT. N'est ce pas?

Nope, not even close. If we are stuck at 5 (which, given the thread's title, was my assumption), we pick BPA - which to will likely be Cooper, if it's Williams or Williams/Cooper, pick Williams b/c he is fills the more immediate need.

If (1) Williams is gone, and (2) someone gives us "value for our pick equivalent to picking" Cooper, then a trade is just as good as a BPA pick because we don't have an immediate need at WR. At the same time, you don't take just any trade out of the spot simply b/c your not sold on the guys at your immediate need position.

It's all very subjective but - very simply - don't trade out of a high value spot just to make a trade and, if you can't make the trade you want, don't pick a lesser value guy when you think a better player is still on the board.

BPA or what you judge the BPA's value to be. Always. Every day.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Nope, not even close. If we are stuck at 5 (which, given the thread's title, was my assumption), we pick BPA - which to will likely be Cooper, if it's Williams or Williams/Cooper, pick Williams b/c he is fills the more immediate need.

If (1) Williams is gone, and (2) someone gives us "value for our pick equivalent to picking" Cooper, then a trade is just as good as a BPA pick because we don't have an immediate need at WR. At the same time, you don't take just any trade out of the spot simply b/c your not sold on the guys at your immediate need position.

It's all very subjective but - very simply - don't trade out of a high value spot just to make a trade and, if you can't make the trade you want, don't pick a lesser value guy when you think a better player is still on the board.

BPA or what you judge the BPA's value to be. Always. Every day.

Agree 100%

[JoeRedskin]

... and to be clear (which I think I already have been), Cooper is not "my boy." I am not pulling for them to draft him. From everything I have read, and for all the reasons I have said in my various posts, however, he seems to me to be the likely, logical BPA choice at 5 under a "no trade down" scenario.

I have only "beaten his drum" b/c so many seem to think that, even if he is the clear BPA at the position we should not pick him simply b/c he doesn't satisfy an immediate need. I think that is a dumb-ass, short-sighted reason for a team passing on a player that they believe to be the most talented guy on the board. [Again, not saying that Scot McC believes that b/c I have no idea who he has rated as what. I am only arguing the underlying principle.]

If you think Fowler or someone else, based on "production and skill set" - or whatever else you want to use to evaluate talent, is the talent level equivalent of Cooper, fine. To me, that's a perfectly good reason for going with someone other than Cooper. I just have yet to hear anyone make a strong case for Fowler over Cooper based on talent only. Schneed's analysis at least made some rational sense but, despite his measurables, Fowler's actual on-field production doesn't seem to match up.

Like I said, the actual tape I saw of Fowler seemed to show him getting pushed around a lot - despite his size and strength. To me, that's a problem. If in actual game situations, he can't consistently dominate against college players given his advantage in measurables, that does not bode well when he has to take his game to the pro level.

[SirLK26]

Why all the talk of Fowler? Beasley is the best edge rusher in this class. His run defense is a big weakness, but we have Murphy to rotate in on rushing downs while Beasley develops. Von Miller is close to the same height and weight, so Beasley's size won't stop him from becoming a good run defender. Does he have talent to develop in that area? I don't know, but even if he doesn't, I would rather have a great pass rusher and poor-to-mediocre run defender in Beasley than a great receiver in Cooper or White.

Let me ask this to emphasize the value of pass rushers versus receivers: how many receivers in the league would you be willing to trade Kerrigan for?

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by SirLK26

Why all the talk of Fowler? Beasley is the best edge rusher in this class. His run defense is a big weakness, but we have Murphy to rotate in on rushing downs while Beasley develops. Von Miller is close to the same height and weight, so Beasley's size won't stop him from becoming a good run defender. Does he have talent to develop in that area? I don't know, but even if he doesn't, I would rather have a great pass rusher and poor-to-mediocre run defender in Beasley than a great receiver in Cooper or White.

Let me ask this to emphasize the value of pass rushers versus receivers: how many receivers in the league would you be willing to trade Kerrigan for?

To answer your question, 10 at least.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by SirLK26

Why all the talk of Fowler? Beasley is the best edge rusher in this class. His run defense is a big weakness, but we have Murphy to rotate in on rushing downs while Beasley develops. Von Miller is close to the same height and weight, so Beasley's size won't stop him from becoming a good run defender. Does he have talent to develop in that area? I don't know, but even if he doesn't, I would rather have a great pass rusher and poor-to-mediocre run defender in Beasley than a great receiver in Cooper or White.

Let me ask this to emphasize the value of pass rushers versus receivers: how many receivers in the league would you be willing to trade Kerrigan for?

Also, I would rather have a great WR than a LB who can be run on at will

[SirLK26]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

To answer your question, 10 at least.

Not surprised, coming from you.

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Also, I would rather have a great WR than a LB who can be run on at will

Well yeah, when you frame it like that it sounds bad. But he wouldn't be expected to play rushing downs as a rookie, and he has the ability to make a huge impact as a pass rusher right away.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by SirLK26

Not surprised, coming from you.



Well yeah, when you frame it like that it sounds bad. But he wouldn't be expected to play rushing downs as a rookie, and he has the ability to make a huge impact as a pass rusher right away.

Coming from me? What does that mean?

Calvin Johnson
Antonio Brown
Dez Bryant
Jordy Nelson
Julio Jones
Demaryius Thomas
DeSean Jackon (If he didn't already play for us)
Odell Beckham Jr. (A rookie, yes but all signs point to game changing elite WR in the making)
Alshon Jeffery
T.Y. Hilton (A push, but based of his first 2 seasons I could see the argument made)


And Randall Cobb and Emmanuel Sanders are pushes
Brandon Marshall, Andre Johnson, and Steve Smith if they were younger