For the Zorn / Campbell Excuse makers...

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

For the folks who want to lay blame at Campbell's feet and on Zorn for JC "not improving": JC's QB rating last year was 77.6, he was sacked 21 times in 16 games (1.31 / gm). JC's QB rating this year is 85.7 and he's been sacked 34 times in 14 games (2.43 / gm).

Do some research and STOP with the JC sucks arguments.

last year we had alot of max protect line schemes going on which is a good reason why the sacks were low last year under gibbs. this year zorn brought in a new spread out offense in which we didnt need extra blockers b/c the qb would be getting the ball out quicker and before pressure could get to him, some call it a 3 step drop. JC does not have the ability to read a D and know where he wants to go with the ball, add to that his long delivery that starts down by his hip and you have a qb who takes alot of punishment and cant flourish under this system.

^^^ not exactly what i believe but is there something irrational or stupid that i said? can we agree that there is more than enough on both sides of the JC debate to allow for honest discussion instead telling people to "STOP" with the JC arguments?

go skins!!!

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

last year we had alot of max protect line schemes going on which is a good reason why the sacks were low last year under gibbs. this year zorn brought in a new spread out offense in which we didnt need extra blockers b/c the qb would be getting the ball out quicker and before pressure could get to him, some call it a 3 step drop. JC does not have the ability to read a D and know where he wants to go with the ball, add to that his long delivery that starts down by his hip and you have a qb who takes alot of punishment and cant flourish under this system.

^^^ not exactly what i believe but is there something irrational or stupid that i said? can we agree that there is more than enough on both sides of the JC debate to allow for honest discussion instead telling people to "STOP" with the JC arguments?

go skins!!!

Nothing irrational or stupid with your points, I disagree with most of them, but they are thoughtful. The STOP was not directed at you or the folks who make reasoned points. It was directed at the "JC sucks" posters and the folks who call people "crazy" (thread starter) for supporting Zorn/JC.

[over the mountain]

^^^ i dont think the argument for or against JC starts and stops with qb rating and number of sacks. by doing that you might be inviting someone to post JC's win-loss record (team thing but this stat gets attached to the qbs as we all know) or TDs hes thrown as a slam shut argument against anyone supporting JC.

im just going to put this in my sig: reasonable redskins fans can disagree with each other without one side being stupider than the other.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

^^^ i dont think the argument for or against JC starts and stops with qb rating and number of sacks. by doing that you might be inviting someone to post JC's win-loss record (team thing but this stat gets attached to the qbs as we all know) or TDs hes thrown as a slam shut argument against anyone supporting JC.

im just going to put this in my sig: reasonable redskins fans can disagree with each other without one side being stupider than the other.

TDs thrown is included in the QB rating. I agree stats aren't everything, but they give you a pretty clear indication of trends. Interpretation of stats is important too. If JC had a 77.6 QB rating and was sacked only 1.31 time per game then it's a pretty logical conclusion to say if his QB rating is now 85.7 and he's being sacked 2.43 times per game he's gotten better.

As far as TDs this year he's thrown 13, the teams/QBs mentioned in the first post have thrown 15/15/14 behind better OLs with experienced OCs.

No one is calling anyone stupid, but to ignore facts and statisitics and call those that have facts and statistics to back them up and support Zorn/Campbell "excuse makers"....well, it is what it is.

[Hail to the Redskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

TDs thrown is included in the QB rating. I agree stats aren't everything, but they give you a pretty clear indication of trends. Interpretation of stats is important too. If JC had a 77.6 QB rating and was sacked only 1.31 time per game then it's a pretty logical conclusion to say if his QB rating is now 85.7 and he's being sacked 2.43 times per game he's gotten better.

As far as TDs this year he's thrown 13, the teams/QBs mentioned in the first post have thrown 15/15/14 behind better OLs with experienced OCs.

No one is calling anyone stupid, but to ignore facts and statisitics and call those that have facts and statistics to back them up and support Zorn/Campbell "excuse makers"....well, it is what it is.

Ok, let me just say first of all... the whole point of the thread is my response to all of the excuses for Zorn & Campbell... I said in another post that I wholeheartedly believe that teams win with their lines (O & D).

But... Let me say in response to this post...

If Campbell is getting sacked 2.43 times per game, many times because his first option isn't open and he pumps but doesn't throw, then sits and pats the ball without automically knowing the best available option left or throwing it away (or pulling down & running like that super running QB Fitzpatrick!! ha!), that is SOMEONE'S fault right? QB? QB coach? Offensive Passing Scheme with not enough viable options & blockers??

That leaves Campbell & Zorn...

Again... let me say... I am not saying we need to fire either, I never even came close to saying it... I am just saying that it is time to use the "inexperienced" excuse for both... they HAVE to improve IMMENSELY for this team not to become the Lions/Bengals/Rams of the next couple of years... these other teams (Falcons/Dolphins/Ravens) have done so in months, not years

Oh, also, for those saying Zorn didn't fumble the ball on the goal line ... he called SELLERS number TWICE in a row!! Portis hasn't scored a touchdown in what, 6-7 weeks? Maybe, if he would have used our fullback to plow an opening for our once MVP candidate RB...

And... those saying our D is much to blame for yesterday, sure, ok, they were worse than usual, but... we went three and out for the first quarter and a half of the game against one of the league's worst defenses!!! Just don't forget how bad the offense was to start the game (and every game over the past 6)

[Hail to the Redskins]

Just want to say, as well, because I started the thread and alot had been misunderstood along the way...

My point is, for this season, the MAIN/MAJORITY reason we will not be in the playoff or playing for a Super Bowl is because of our offense/passing game!

* First of all, name one new starter from last years team... Chris Horton? Jason Taylor? only one's I can think of... so we returned the majority of a 9-7 playoff team.

* Defense is NOT TO BLAME!! The ONLY stat that matters is POINTS ALLOWED... or am I wrong?
* Our defense has not given up more than 24 points in a game all season (Pittsburgh is only other team to say that) - 12 teams are AVERAGING allowing more than 24 per game!! And one is a playoff team (Arizona)
* OUR defense averages giving up 19.0 per game - 7th in the NFL!!
* Our defense is good enough to make the playoffs!

* We have the 7th ranked running offense... I'd say good enough for a playoff team.

I am just saying that yes, these two guys (mostly Zorn) are the MAIN reason we are not making the playoffs this season. Now, do I agree that maybe with this cast of players needed an established coach/OC? Heck yes and the ultimate blame should go to Cerratto & Snyder, because we weren't ready to completely rebuild yet and could very well be what the Falcons/Ravens/Dolphins are this year.... but... that just reinforces that Zorn (and Campbell under him) has been the main reason we are where we are

I'm not saying that Campbell should go ... as far as Zorn? It depends... if you want to tear everything down and rebuild completely under his new philosophies, ok, let's go there...

but if you think we have a majority of playoff talent and just need some GOOD offseason moves to really go deep in playoffs, we may need the type of change the Falcons/Ravens/ Dolphins got which is experienced OC and HC...

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

If Campbell is getting sacked 2.43 times per game, many times because his first option isn't open and he pumps but doesn't throw, then sits and pats the ball without automically knowing the best available option left or throwing it away (or pulling down & running like that super running QB Fitzpatrick!! ha!), that is SOMEONE'S fault right? QB? QB coach? Offensive Passing Scheme with not enough viable options & blockers??

If that was the case, you'd be correct, but over the last few weeks he's been getting sacked because the OL is making incorrect blitz pick-up calls, is missing assignments, or getting physically beaten. JC has actually saved a good number of sacks by getting out of the pocket or getting the ball out quickly.

Again... let me say... I am not saying we need to fire either, I never even came close to saying it... I am just saying that it is time to use the "inexperienced" excuse for both... they HAVE to improve IMMENSELY for this team not to become the Lions/Bengals/Rams of the next couple of years... these other teams (Falcons/Dolphins/Ravens) have done so in months, not years

I agree both Zorn and Campbell need to improve, but they are not the main culprits for our current stretch of poor performances. I challenge you to name me a productive offense with a poor OL....don't try to research and find one, because it doesn't exist.

Oh, also, for those saying Zorn didn't fumble the ball on the goal line ... he called SELLERS number TWICE in a row!! Portis hasn't scored a touchdown in what, 6-7 weeks? Maybe, if he would have used our fullback to plow an opening for our once MVP candidate RB...

I agree with you here, bad play selection by Zorn.

And... those saying our D is much to blame for yesterday, sure, ok, they were worse than usual, but... we went three and out for the first quarter and a half of the game against one of the league's worst defenses!!! Just don't forget how bad the offense was to start the game (and every game over the past 6)

our defense surrendered 20 points, against a Bungles team that is averaging 12.4 point per game, I believe it was 11.x prior to Sunday. They definitely are responsible for this loss just as much as the offense.

[Hail to the Redskins]

good post... but I disagree with the sacks assessment. Many sacks lately have been from the other team having more rushers than we have protectors in my opinion... but that's fine

Also... the defense gave up the TD early, but the Bungleds DID start the drive on the 35... not a good excuse, and the did performed below par, but... anyway, our offense should be able to score more than 20 against the Cincinnati Bengals too...

[hail_2_da_skins]

Jason Campbell and Jim Zorn are partially to blame for the failures of the Washington Redskins, but so is the entire organization. This overreacting, fire the coach, bench the quarterback, hire a free agent, knee jerk reaction after every loss is one of the reasons the Redskins have no stability. The Redskins need to adopt a long term philosophy of building from within. The biggest problems with the Redskins is they have no depth, so when a key player is injured, there is a big drop off in talent. If the Skins consistently drafted for depth every year, they would always be developing talent waiting to step in and contribute. Look at an organization like the Steelers or the Patriots, they continue to stock talent on the offensive and defensive lines year after to year. The Redskins give away all their draft picks and rely too heavy on overrated free agents. The off season plan last year was a good one. They stayed away from the high priced free agents and went to the draft. But as the season started, they shifted gears and went out and blew draft picks on overrated, has been players like Jason Taylor and Shaun Alexander. When are the Redskins going to ever learn? Under Dan Snyder, the Skins have been the laughing stock of the NFL. One blunder after another.

[Dblock804]

That Sellers play should have been called dead. And Colley's fumble was helmet to helmet hit.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Hail to the Redskins

1) Atlanta Falcons - Rookie Head Coach, ROOKIE QB - 4-12 last year, 9-5 this year
* First time DEFENSIVE background head coach, ROOKIE QB on a team that was 4-12 last year.
* 5-2 over last 7 games... improving
* Points For - 336 Points Against - 281
* Learning curve really has that drastic effect on an offense/QB??

Falcons are 1st in the NFL in rushing, 5th in sacks allowed. They have a much better OL and Mike Mularkey is an experienced, successful OC. Quality wins against: Det, KC, GB, Oak, NO, SD....did beat CHI, CAR & TB

2) Baltimore Ravens - Rookie HC, Rookie QB - 5-11 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time SPECIAL TEAMS background HC, ROOKIE QB.
* 7-2 over last 9 games... improving
* PF - 325 PA - 213
* You can talk about their defense, but that offense with rookie Flacco, much weaker RB crew and basically same talent at receiver/tight end as Skins still = 325 points to our 231.

Ravens are 6th in rushing and tied for 15th in sacks allowed, again much better OL with an experienced, solid OC, Cam Cameron. Quality wins against: CIN (2x), CLE (2x), Oak, Hou, us....did beat MIA, PHI

3) Miami Dolphins - Rookie HC, QB Signed JUST before season - 1-15 last year, 9-5 this year
* Again, First time HC, QB in brand new system, weak receiving depth on a team that was 1-15 LAST YEAR!!
* 7-1 over last 8! (talk about improvement!)
* PF - 283 PA - 269

Miami is 12th in rushing, tied for 15th in sacks allowed has an experienced OC and Bill Parcells as GM. Wins against: SD, NE (early), Buf (2x), Den, Sea, Oak, STL, SF.

[/quote]
4) Washington Redskins - Rookie HC, returning QB in new PASSING system (same running) - 9-7 last year, 7-7 this year
* 1-5 over last 6 games... improving??
* 2-2 vs Rams, Lions, Seahawks, Bengals with a point diff. of +2!!!!
* PF - 231 PA - 266
[/quote]
8th in rushing, most of the yardage earlier in the season, 21st in sacks allowed, an aging and injured OL. Also a first time HC/OC that has a staff he didn't put in place for the most part and is trying to do too much right now.

5) Aaron Rogers, Matt Cassel, Jay Cutler - All QB's same age/experience as Campbell (or less) outplaying (by far) Campbell.

All different situations, GB was in the Conf Championship last year, NE in the SB, and Cutler faces the Raiders & Chiefs twice a year.

We have a better defense than Falcons & Dolphins (with more experience), much better offensive weapons than the Ravens,

We are 29th in sacks and 30th in turnovers. So while statistically we are slightly better then both, we don't have a defense that normally sets our offense up with great field position.

I wouldn't call it crazy to not fire Zorn and bench JC, quite the opposite, it would be foolish for Snyder to fire Zorn and foolish for Zorn to bench Campbell. The problems we have are primarily on the Offensive line (aging, talent declining, injury prone) and Defensive line (no playmaker at DE, no DT who can collapse the pocket). We have other issues, but those two are glaring weaknesses.

[SmootSmack]

Zorn shouldered a lot of the blame, deserved or not, during his press conference today. I was happy to see that. That was needed I think

[Swarley]

Threads like these remind me how weird we can be as fans at times. Before the season started most of our fan base (and others) agreed that the Skins would struggle to win on a consistent basis and would likely be out of the playoffs. After our fast start it seems those same people overrated our team and thought we would have no problem getting into the playoffs. Now that we've hit a pretty bad patch those people feel "betrayed" when in truth our team is pretty much where we expected them to be in the first place if not better. If more people would take a step back and see just how early it is to have too many expectations of our team we'd be a lot better off.

[funked]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Threads like these remind me how weird we can be as fans at times. Before the season started most of our fan base (and others) agreed that the Skins would struggle to win on a consistent basis and would likely be out of the playoffs. After our fast start it seems those same people overrated our team and thought we would have no problem getting into the playoffs. Now that we've hit a pretty bad patch those people feel "betrayed" when in truth our team is pretty much where we expected them to be in the first place if not better. If more people would take a step back and see just how early it is to have too many expectations of our team we'd be a lot better off.

Reading this go-nowhere thread was worth it just for this gem. For me, the season was a success at the back-to-back wins at dallas and philly. This season hasn't been a great one, but Zorn and Campbell need to stay if only to help improve our reputation as career killers for coaches.

Personally, I think coaching only goes so far in this league. Better players + easier schedule = wins IMO. If I'm not mistaken, Norv Turner took us the closest to the Super Bowl only after a lot of mediocre years. The team can do better with THIS coach.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Threads like these remind me how weird we can be as fans at times. Before the season started most of our fan base (and others) agreed that the Skins would struggle to win on a consistent basis and would likely be out of the playoffs. After our fast start it seems those same people overrated our team and thought we would have no problem getting into the playoffs. Now that we've hit a pretty bad patch those people feel "betrayed" when in truth our team is pretty much where we expected them to be in the first place if not better. If more people would take a step back and see just how early it is to have too many expectations of our team we'd be a lot better off.

well said