What has Obama done well?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

I don't know of the Civic Code. The race is coming on and I don't feel like looking it up. For military personel it is the (American) Armed Forces Code of Conduct. A military officer or enlisted man who bowed before a King would be brought before NJP at the least.

The President doesn't bow for the same reason that the flag is not lowered, dignity. He isn't just some schmuck off the street. He is the representative of this Republic. When he bows he does so on our behalf.

(Taken from U.S. Code, Title 10, Chapter 36, Sec. 176. Respect for flag)
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

Is the Flag more important than the President?

A bow, courtsey, or kow-tow isn't a sign of respect. It is a sign of subservience. Should you choose to do so means you are subservient.

Choose the sign of serfdom if you will, an American should only bow before God. If this doesn't make sense to you, I am disheartened at your understanding of patriotism.

But isn't subvervience a matter of what's perceived to be in one's heart? And I can you tell you from experience, during my enlistment during the Gulf War, we were briefed prior to leaving the ship in foreign ports. Often times we displayed a great deal of deference towards local custom and authorities.

I haven't read the UCMJ or the Code of Ethics in many years, but I'd be interested in seeing where bowing is punishable by law or deemed unpatriotic. Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that we should bow or do anything of the sort, but I would like to see where it's written.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

I don't know of the Civic Code. The race is coming on and I don't feel like looking it up. For military personel it is the (American) Armed Forces Code of Conduct. A military officer or enlisted man who bowed before a King would be brought before NJP at the least.

The President doesn't bow for the same reason that the flag is not lowered, dignity. He isn't just some schmuck off the street. He is the representative of this Republic. When he bows he does so on our behalf.

(Taken from U.S. Code, Title 10, Chapter 36, Sec. 176. Respect for flag)
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

Is the Flag more important than the President?

A bow, courtsey, or kow-tow isn't a sign of respect. It is a sign of subservience. Should you choose to do so means you are subservient.

Choose the sign of serfdom if you will, an American should only bow before God. If this doesn't make sense to you, I am disheartened at your understanding of patriotism.

From what I understand it really depends on the culture. Bowing in many cultures is a sign or respect or even that of an apology. In some cultures yes it is a sign of subservience. The key is to know your audience.

On a related note, was W out of line when he held hands and touched cheeks with a Saudi prince?

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

First of all, when you say us darned arrogant Americans you need to speak for yourself.

Second, the President of the United States doesn't bow before anyone, nor does any American. Showing respect means a handshake, for an officer it means a salute. When we were trained in dealing with foreign officials, to include Monarchs, it was very clear, you do not bow before anyone. If a schmuck PFC can understand that, I see no reason why his commander in chief cannot?

Going to another country and expecting them to speak English? Again, speak for yourself.

just from the tone of almost all your posts, you might even be above the most arrogant of Americans

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dmek25

just from the tone of almost all your posts, you might even be above the most arrogant of Americans

I will disagree with you here...he has a tone of someone that is disheartened by what he sees, and now what he is hearing to his responses. He is 100% right about how the president of the USA and commander in chief should act. For anyone that has been in the military, this is pretty obvious. To call him an arrogant american (above the most arrogant to be exact) is a gross misinterpretation. He's offended, as should he should be. If you understood what he understands, you would be too.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I will disagree with you here...he has a tone of someone that is disheartened by what he sees, and now what he is hearing to his responses. He is 100% right about how the president of the USA and commander in chief should act. For anyone that has been in the military, this is pretty obvious. To call him an arrogant american (above the most arrogant to be exact) is a gross misinterpretation. He's offended, as should he should be. If you understood what he understands, you would be too.

What? For someone in the military?? I was in the military too. Loved my country then, love it now. And I still disagree with that point of view. Respectfully.

Why is it that some on the right feel as though they have a monoply on patriotism?

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I will disagree with you here...he has a tone of someone that is disheartened by what he sees, and now what he is hearing to his responses. He is 100% right about how the president of the USA and commander in chief should act. For anyone that has been in the military, this is pretty obvious. To call him an arrogant american (above the most arrogant to be exact) is a gross misinterpretation. He's offended, as should he should be. If you understood what he understands, you would be too.

i hear you. but it is still all opinion. and sorry that the only people that really understand respect are military personnel, either past or present.

[12thMan]

Interesting thread...

First I think it's worth mentioning that there are no perfect presidents, no perfect cabinets, and certainly no perfect policies - at least none that a 100% of the people will agree on 100% of the time.

Angry's and Saden's posts, in my opinion, tend to portray a pretty accurate account of his first seven months in office. If nothing else I think he's proven to be an extremely savvy and tactful politician. I'm particularly struck by some of his Republican appointments:

John Hunt (Ambassador to China)
Ray LaHood (Sec. Transportation)
Jim Leach ( National Endowment of the Humanities)
Robert Gates (Sec. of Defense)
John McHugh (Sec. of Army)
General Jim Jones (NSA)

John Hunt and Gen. Jones could easily, and they still may, run for national office one day. Along those same bipartisan lines, in 2007 Obama and Dick Lugar (R) crafted legistlation on nonproliferation law. It wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that Obama and Lugar talk on a regular basis about a host of foreign policy issues. So I find it difficult to swallow the notion that on one hand Obama is some radical leftist trained by terrorists who hates America, yet when I look at the makeup of some of his most trusted advisors and colleagues, they are seasoned men of stature who are anything but radical. It just seems like an unfair standard some here hold him to.

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Interesting thread...

First I think it's worth mentioning that there are no perfect presidents, no perfect cabinets, and certainly no perfect policies - at least none that a 100% of the people will agree on 100% of the time.

Angry's and Saden's posts, in my opinion, tend to portray a pretty accurate account of his first seven months in office. If nothing else I think he's proven to be an extremely savvy and tactful politician. I'm particularly struck by some of his Republican appointments:

John Hunt (Ambassador to China)
Ray LaHood (Sec. Transportation)
Jim Leach ( National Endowment of the Humanities)
Robert Gates (Sec. of Defense)
John McHugh (Sec. of Army)
General Jim Jones (NSA)

John Hunt and Gen. Jones could easily, and they still may, run for national office one day. Along those same bipartisan lines, in 2007 Obama and Dick Lugar (R) crafted legistlation on nonproliferation law. It wouldn't at all surprise me to learn that Obama and Lugar talk on a regular basis about a host of foreign policy issues. So I find it difficult to swallow the notion that on one hand Obama is some radical leftist trained by terrorists who hates America, yet when I look at the makeup of some of his most trusted advisors and colleagues, they are seasoned men of stature who are anything but radical. It just seems like an unfair standard some here hold him to.

the best trick the devil ever played was making people believe he didn't. exist. :FIREdevil

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

the best trick the devil ever played was making people believe he didn't. exist. :FIREdevil

Seems like you have a lot of faith in the devil.

[GMScud]

I gotta say, having this little dude as his chief of staff is a good move for Obama and his policies, but personally he scares the hell out of me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us...l.html?_r=1&hp

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I gotta say, having this little dude as his chief of staff is a good move for Obama and his policies, but personally he scares the hell out of me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us...l.html?_r=1&hp

Haha...as soon as I read little dude, I knew you were talking about Rahm. I met him once and believe me he is a little dude, but for some reason people don't take him lightly at all. Pretty intense dude.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I gotta say, having this little dude as his chief of staff is a good move for Obama and his policies, but personally he scares the hell out of me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us...l.html?_r=1&hp

Interesting read...I too would want him in my corner.

[12thMan]

Why can't we all just get along?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Why can't we all just get along?

We do when our interests align (Redskins)?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by saden1

We do when our interests align (Redskins)?

Amazing how football is the common thread. (pardon the pun)