Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.

I agree with your previous assesment of GWs defensive schemes, but I respectfully disagree that it's pure genius. Unless he allows more flexibility with his players to become playmakers, not just Sean Taylor, I think it's possible we'll see more of the same next year. Maybe not quite as bad, but nothing like the '04 campaign. Think about it, we'll return probably 90% of the same group we've seen this year, so if the personnel doesn't see any significant overhaul, then it he has to tweek his scheme somewhere, somehow.

Our defense has been on a steady decline since the '04 season, and I've long wondered if the rest of the NFL has figured him out. Since Williams has arrived we've consistently given up the big play. It's been the achilles of this team.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by The Zimmermans

You don't think that drafting a MLB in the top ten will help us???? Marshal is not getting the tackles that he needs to. We need a big fast linebacker that can shed blocks and fill those gaps that the DT's create. You stop the run with your LB's filling the holes. Our run D is miserable, but other teams are not always picking up on that. The tampa game was a great illustration of our struggles.

If Lemar Marshall is so bad, how come he had such a good year in 2005? Did he forget how to play football? Or is it maybe that last year Salave'a was healthy and stout against opposing linemen, and paired nicely with Griffin in keeping offensive linemen from beating the Skins up?

Salave'a has not been healthy this season and has not been the immovable object he was in '04 or '05. Golston has some nice quick little moves in pass rushing situations, but he's undersized and gets plowed on running plays.

Put in a big ass DT, and all of a sudden you'll be praising Lemar Marshall again next year. He'll flow to the ball more freely.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I agree with your previous assesment of GWs defensive schemes, but I respectfully disagree that it's pure genius. Unless he allows more flexibility with his players to become playmakers, not just Sean Taylor, I think it's possible we'll see more of the same next year. Maybe not quite as bad, but nothing like the '04 campaign. Think about it, we'll return probably 90% of the same group we've seen this year, so if the personnel doesn't see any significant overhaul, then it he has to tweek his scheme somewhere, somehow.

Our defense has been on a steady decline since the '04 season, and I've long wondered if the rest of the NFL has figured him out. Since Williams has arrived we've consistently given up the big play. It's been the achilles of this team.

With all due respect, I think you're the one that needs to think about it. Football is a team sport, a defense is like a chain. One weak link and the whole thing breaks. This year we have weak links at SS and CB (hence we're exploited in the deep passing game, and consequently the LBs can't be turned loose to blitz) and a weak link at DT (the middle of the line gets plowed out of the way, consequently LBs can't flow into the gap to make tackles).

We don't need much tweaking of the scheme. It still works. We just need two or three players to solidify the weak links in the chain, and suddenly offensive coordinators won't have a place they can hone in on and attack. You can't blitz if you can't cover. And if you can't stop the run, it doesn't matter if you can't cover because teams will just run on you all day.

If any changes need to be made, it's in GW's attitude. He needs to be more humble and honest with himself in assessing what he needs to make his scheme click.

[Citizens for 81]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

With all due respect, I think you're the one that needs to think about it. Football is a team sport, a defense is like a chain. One weak link and the whole thing breaks. This year we have weak links at SS and CB (hence we're exploited in the deep passing game, and consequently the LBs can't be turned loose to blitz) and a weak link at DT (the middle of the line gets plowed out of the way, consequently LBs can't flow into the gap to make tackles).

We don't need much tweaking of the scheme. It still works. We just need the players to make it work. You can't blitz if you can't cover. And if you can't stop the run, it doesn't matter if you can't cover because teams will just run on you all day.

If any changes need to be made, it's in GW's attitude. He needs to be more humble and honest with himself in assessing what he needs to make his scheme click.

I agree 100% on D-line's responsibilities, in any defensive scheme, the d-line's responsibility is to tie-up the o-line so the linebackers can make plays.

And in this year's draft there are 3 DTs that can do that in the top 10.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

With all due respect, I think you're the one that needs to think about it. Football is a team sport, a defense is like a chain. One weak link and the whole thing breaks. This year we have weak links at SS and CB (hence we're exploited in the deep passing game, and consequently the LBs can't be turned loose to blitz) and a weak link at DT (the middle of the line gets plowed out of the way, consequently LBs can't flow into the gap to make tackles).

We don't need much tweaking of the scheme. It still works. We just need two or three players to solidify the weak links in the chain, and suddenly offensive coordinators won't have a place they can hone in on and attack. You can't blitz if you can't cover. And if you can't stop the run, it doesn't matter if you can't cover because teams will just run on you all day.

If any changes need to be made, it's in GW's attitude. He needs to be more humble and honest with himself in assessing what he needs to make his scheme click.

I agree that two players will indeed help. But if had those two players this year with the way we've played, I'm not sure it would make that much of a difference.

What we do agree on is that the scheme needs some tweaking, not overhauling, but some tweaking.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I agree that two players will indeed help. But if had those two players this year with the way we've played, I'm not sure it would make that much of a difference.

What we do agree on is that the scheme needs some tweaking, not overhauling, but some tweaking.

Exactly what would you tweak? I don't see how anyone can say a scheme needs tweaking unless they can describe exactly what needs to be done and why it will work.

William's scheme is still the same, he just can't deploy it. No scheme change needs to be made, he just needs players that can allow him to use his entire bag of tricks.

He needs the players that allow him to bring the blitzy back.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

If Lemar Marshall is so bad, how come he had such a good year in 2005? Did he forget how to play football? Or is it maybe that last year Salave'a was healthy and stout against opposing linemen, and paired nicely with Griffin in keeping offensive linemen from beating the Skins up?

Salave'a has not been healthy this season and has not been the immovable object he was in '04 or '05. Golston has some nice quick little moves in pass rushing situations, but he's undersized and gets plowed on running plays.

Put in a big ass DT, and all of a sudden you'll be praising Lemar Marshall again next year. He'll flow to the ball more freely.

Very good point. In order for Marshall to be effective he must have strong DT's. Heck he's only 225 as a MLB. But still I would look for someone a little bigger on run downs and use Marshall in nickel situations. We really need a more impact player at MLB on run downs. I would use Marshall as Monte Colemen type of player.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.

Well put! Did anyone watch film on Carter before they signed him? WTF were they thinking? Good pass rushers are like gold. You just don't let them walk away if they are any good. So why does one of the worst defenses in the NFL let him walk? I just think Carter would be more effective if they used him on passing downs ONLY. He IS NOT an everydown 4-3 DE. He's just not big enough.

[backrow]

Originally Posted by dgack

I also said DE, for a couple of reasons.

1 -- because DB's don't need to be world beaters if they don't have to keep coverage on a play for 5-10 seconds.

2 -- because of simple math and physics. Even a small disturbance at the origin of an object's trajectory can cause a huge change, whereas often even large disturbances at the end can still be compensated for.

3 -- because DB's don't help that much in run support, either.

Well stated. I've said it for 13 straight years.

And thanks for the physics lesson. I never understood it before now!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Very good point. In order for Marshall to be effective he must have strong DT's. Heck he's only 225 as a MLB. But still I would look for someone a little bigger on run downs and use Marshall in nickel situations. We really need a more impact player at MLB on run downs. I would use Marshall as Monte Colemen type of player.

This may be off the wall, but I'd seriously consider moving Marcus to MLB. Play Rocky and LeMar on the outsides, sign Justin Smith as a DE, and trade down for multiple picks to draft a DT (Okam, Tyler?) and a CB (Bennett, Cason?)

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Exactly what would you tweak? I don't see how anyone can say a scheme needs tweaking unless they can describe exactly what needs to be done and why it will work.

William's scheme is still the same, he just can't deploy it. No scheme change needs to be made, he just needs players that can allow him to use his entire bag of tricks.

He needs the players that allow him to bring the blitzy back.

I'm not smarter than Gregg Williams, so I don't know exactly what needs to be tweaked. But I do know that if you only have fifteen sacks to date, you need to switch something to compensate for weeknesses. It's just an observation, but I think it could be more than than an observation when teams are game planning for us.

He needs the players to allow him to bring back the blitz? Typically, the players that are high on sack totals or are effective blitzers tend to be of the free-lance mold, or are very aggressive in their pursuit and Gregg Williams doesn't prefer that type of player. That guy doesn't fit this system. The one year where Springs had six sacks from the corner may never happen again. If it does, I'm all for it.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm not smarter than Gregg Williams, so I don't know exactly what needs to be tweaked. But I do know that if you only have fifteen sacks to date, you need to switch something to compensate for weeknesses. It's just an observation, but I think it could be more than than an observation when teams are game planning for us.

He needs the players to allow him to bring back the blitz? Typically, the players that are high on sack totals or are effective blitzers tend to be of the free-lance mold, or are very aggressive in their pursuit and Gregg Williams doesn't prefer that type of player. That guy doesn't fit this system. The one year where Springs had six sacks from the corner may never happen again. If it does, I'm all for it.

UGH.

The reason he's not blitzing has nothing to do with the DEs or the LBs he has on the roster. He's not blitzing because our secondary can't hold up without coverage help from the LB corps. He needs to drop the LBs into zones or we just get gashed through the air.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

UGH.

The reason he's not blitzing has nothing to do with the DEs or the LBs he has on the roster. He's not blitzing because our secondary can't hold up without coverage help from the LB corps. He needs to drop the LBs into zones or we just get gashed through the air.

Well we've been getting dashed through the air anyway, haven't we?
By the way, I knew that's what you were basically saying about needing help in the secondary.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

UGH.

The reason he's not blitzing has nothing to do with the DEs or the LBs he has on the roster. He's not blitzing because our secondary can't hold up without coverage help from the LB corps. He needs to drop the LBs into zones or we just get gashed through the air.

This is why we desperately need a #1 cover guy at CB. Everything else follows if GW has confidence in our #1 covering their #1 one on one.

[Monkeydad]

CB by far.