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Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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View Poll Results: What Position Is Our Most Pressing Need?
CB 42 40.00%
S 5 4.76%
DE 32 30.48%
DT 15 14.29%
LB 8 7.62%
OT 1 0.95%
OG 1 0.95%
K 1 0.95%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-12-2006, 11:35 PM   #1
Beemnseven
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Yeah. If Grilliams took the reins off, he'd have a lot more. Carter's gotten near the QB on lots of occasions. If our secondary was worth a crap and could give him a split second more time, he'd probably have 8 right now. But our secondary blows and lets QBs throw at will; they don't hesitate to unload and consequently Carter just misses.

Plus, we're not in too many 2nd and longs and 3rd and longs this year. We haven't been great against the run, so the DEs aren't getting to pin their ears back in obvious pass rushing situations.

Sack numbers are an incredibly misleading way to look at DE production.
You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.
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Old 12-13-2006, 03:12 AM   #2
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.
I think Williams teaches our line to engage the blocker. This way, if a ballcarrier comes through, said player can make the tackle. Carter's best move is the speed move. So I would agree with your 'what were they thinking' assessment of the signing (for this system at least), but going foward I think the D Line can be built AROUND Carter as opposed to in spite of him.
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Old 12-13-2006, 07:59 AM   #3
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?
I think this "reined in" philosophy has a lot less to do with Williams and more to do with Greg Blache who once said that sacks don't matter

"In 2003, Dick Jauron disciple Greg Blache told the media that "sacks don't matter" in the scheme of his defense, and his players backed up his words, finishing with a franchise-low 18."

Chicago Bears Pass Rush Revival
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:19 AM   #4
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Originally Posted by Beemnseven View Post
You're telling me that Gregg Williams has deliberately held the reins on Carter and is not allowing him to go after the quarterback? So then, the plummet in defensive rankings is all by design?

One could defend Andre Carter by demanding that the secondary step it up and blanket everyone like they're supposed to.

One could defend the secondary by demanding that the defensive line get the quarterback sooner. Neither positions are doing their job.

I'm not buying into the notion that Williams is somehow holding Carter back in pass rushing situations. He only averaged 4.5 sacks a year in San Fransisco before being moved to linebacker. So his "mad pass rushing skills" apparently failed him there too, -- unless of course, the 49ers had exactly the same philosophy that Gregg Williams has. I find that difficult to believe. Andre Carter is yet another hideous miscalculation in scouting personnel by this front office.
What's hard to understand here? Williams and Blache don't let the ends chase the QB up the field on every down. They ask them to play gap control on 1st and 10 and 2nd and mediums/shorts. Take a look at the D next time, you don't see Carter and Daniels running upfield like crazy right off the snap unless it's an obvious passing situation. They kind of keep themselves in front of the tackle they're going against, that way they're able to work off the block and get to a RB coming through either gap. With all the screens being called in the league these days, having your ends just chase the QB all day is a bad idea. Your ends constantly get drawn up the field, the ball goes over their heads, and suddenly the defense has lost containment and the screen goes for a big gainer. Or on draw plays to an RB, same thing, the ends come up the field and suddenly the defense is vulnerable on the edges.

They're not asked to chase down the QB with abandon like some ends around the league are. If Freeney were a Redskin, you'd be wondering what the hell is wrong with him when he only put up 8 sacks.

In a Gregg Williams defense, you know a DE is having success by looking at his tackle numbers, not by looking at his sacks. If a DE is controlling his gaps then he'll make plenty of tackles, keeping RBs from gaining more than two yards, and forcing the defense into second and long.

If we had a secondary, we'd be able to blitz to get our sacks. We need CB SS and DT, our ends are more than adequate.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:21 AM   #5
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
What's hard to understand here? Williams and Blache don't let the ends chase the QB up the field on every down. They ask them to play gap control on 1st and 10 and 2nd and mediums/shorts. Take a look at the D next time, you don't see Carter and Daniels running upfield like crazy right off the snap unless it's an obvious passing situation. They kind of keep themselves in front of the tackle they're going against, that way they're able to work off the block and get to a RB coming through either gap. With all the screens being called in the league these days, having your ends just chase the QB all day is a bad idea. Your ends constantly get drawn up the field, the ball goes over their heads, and suddenly the defense has lost containment and the screen goes for a big gainer. Or on draw plays to an RB, same thing, the ends come up the field and suddenly the defense is vulnerable on the edges.

They're not asked to chase down the QB with abandon like some ends around the league are. If Freeney were a Redskin, you'd be wondering what the hell is wrong with him when he only put up 8 sacks.

In a Gregg Williams defense, you know a DE is having success by looking at his tackle numbers, not by looking at his sacks. If a DE is controlling his gaps then he'll make plenty of tackles, keeping RBs from gaining more than two yards, and forcing the defense into second and long.

If we had a secondary, we'd be able to blitz to get our sacks. We need CB SS and DT, our ends are more than adequate.
nice post
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:33 AM   #6
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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nice post
Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:41 AM   #7
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.
This season has to be a bit of a wake up call for GW, and that's probably not a bad thing. I think he definitely was getting full of himself. He had taken a squad of mostly castoffs and unknowns and turned them into one of the league's best defenses. Now it's time for him to re-evaluate things and now that his ego has been taken down a notch hopefully he can get back to what helped him build great defenses in the past.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:51 AM   #8
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Originally Posted by Schneed10 View Post
Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.
You don't think that drafting a MLB in the top ten will help us???? Marshal is not getting the tackles that he needs to. We need a big fast linebacker that can shed blocks and fill those gaps that the DT's create. You stop the run with your LB's filling the holes. Our run D is miserable, but other teams are not always picking up on that. The tampa game was a great illustration of our struggles.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:56 AM   #9
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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You don't think that drafting a MLB in the top ten will help us???? Marshal is not getting the tackles that he needs to. We need a big fast linebacker that can shed blocks and fill those gaps that the DT's create. You stop the run with your LB's filling the holes. Our run D is miserable, but other teams are not always picking up on that. The tampa game was a great illustration of our struggles.
There are no MLBs in the top 10 in this year's draft.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:07 AM   #10
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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You don't think that drafting a MLB in the top ten will help us???? Marshal is not getting the tackles that he needs to. We need a big fast linebacker that can shed blocks and fill those gaps that the DT's create. You stop the run with your LB's filling the holes. Our run D is miserable, but other teams are not always picking up on that. The tampa game was a great illustration of our struggles.
If Lemar Marshall is so bad, how come he had such a good year in 2005? Did he forget how to play football? Or is it maybe that last year Salave'a was healthy and stout against opposing linemen, and paired nicely with Griffin in keeping offensive linemen from beating the Skins up?

Salave'a has not been healthy this season and has not been the immovable object he was in '04 or '05. Golston has some nice quick little moves in pass rushing situations, but he's undersized and gets plowed on running plays.

Put in a big ass DT, and all of a sudden you'll be praising Lemar Marshall again next year. He'll flow to the ball more freely.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:27 PM   #11
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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If Lemar Marshall is so bad, how come he had such a good year in 2005? Did he forget how to play football? Or is it maybe that last year Salave'a was healthy and stout against opposing linemen, and paired nicely with Griffin in keeping offensive linemen from beating the Skins up?

Salave'a has not been healthy this season and has not been the immovable object he was in '04 or '05. Golston has some nice quick little moves in pass rushing situations, but he's undersized and gets plowed on running plays.

Put in a big ass DT, and all of a sudden you'll be praising Lemar Marshall again next year. He'll flow to the ball more freely.
Very good point. In order for Marshall to be effective he must have strong DT's. Heck he's only 225 as a MLB. But still I would look for someone a little bigger on run downs and use Marshall in nickel situations. We really need a more impact player at MLB on run downs. I would use Marshall as Monte Colemen type of player.
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:35 PM   #12
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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If Lemar Marshall is so bad, how come he had such a good year in 2005? Did he forget how to play football? Or is it maybe that last year Salave'a was healthy and stout against opposing linemen, and paired nicely with Griffin in keeping offensive linemen from beating the Skins up?

Salave'a has not been healthy this season and has not been the immovable object he was in '04 or '05. Golston has some nice quick little moves in pass rushing situations, but he's undersized and gets plowed on running plays.

Put in a big ass DT, and all of a sudden you'll be praising Lemar Marshall again next year. He'll flow to the ball more freely.

What about drafting DT Alan Branch (6'6", 331 lbs) from Michigan?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:07 AM   #13
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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Thank you.

My whole thing here is that Gregg Williams' system is still pure genius. It has worked for so many years, and still will. Perhaps he got cocky and let the wrong players get away (Ryan Clark), and injuries hurt him in his secondary. But the system will still work if he can get another good safety who communicate well with Taylor, if he can get a run stopping force in the middle of the defensive line, and if he can get the CB play he needs.

Maybe that CB play comes from Springs next year, or maybe we sign/draft somebody, I dunno. But with those three things, GW will have us back on top. We don't need ends and we don't need LBs; at first glance the stats tell you that the ends and LBs are having down years. But that's more due to the weakness at other positions spilling over and affecting their play. It's still a team sport, even the great Marcus Washington is going to have a down year when he doesn't have DTs keeping linemen and fullbacks away from him.

I agree with your previous assesment of GWs defensive schemes, but I respectfully disagree that it's pure genius. Unless he allows more flexibility with his players to become playmakers, not just Sean Taylor, I think it's possible we'll see more of the same next year. Maybe not quite as bad, but nothing like the '04 campaign. Think about it, we'll return probably 90% of the same group we've seen this year, so if the personnel doesn't see any significant overhaul, then it he has to tweek his scheme somewhere, somehow.

Our defense has been on a steady decline since the '04 season, and I've long wondered if the rest of the NFL has figured him out. Since Williams has arrived we've consistently given up the big play. It's been the achilles of this team.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:12 AM   #14
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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I agree with your previous assesment of GWs defensive schemes, but I respectfully disagree that it's pure genius. Unless he allows more flexibility with his players to become playmakers, not just Sean Taylor, I think it's possible we'll see more of the same next year. Maybe not quite as bad, but nothing like the '04 campaign. Think about it, we'll return probably 90% of the same group we've seen this year, so if the personnel doesn't see any significant overhaul, then it he has to tweek his scheme somewhere, somehow.

Our defense has been on a steady decline since the '04 season, and I've long wondered if the rest of the NFL has figured him out. Since Williams has arrived we've consistently given up the big play. It's been the achilles of this team.
With all due respect, I think you're the one that needs to think about it. Football is a team sport, a defense is like a chain. One weak link and the whole thing breaks. This year we have weak links at SS and CB (hence we're exploited in the deep passing game, and consequently the LBs can't be turned loose to blitz) and a weak link at DT (the middle of the line gets plowed out of the way, consequently LBs can't flow into the gap to make tackles).

We don't need much tweaking of the scheme. It still works. We just need two or three players to solidify the weak links in the chain, and suddenly offensive coordinators won't have a place they can hone in on and attack. You can't blitz if you can't cover. And if you can't stop the run, it doesn't matter if you can't cover because teams will just run on you all day.

If any changes need to be made, it's in GW's attitude. He needs to be more humble and honest with himself in assessing what he needs to make his scheme click.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:18 AM   #15
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Re: Bill B Presents TMC's Pick the Position Poll

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With all due respect, I think you're the one that needs to think about it. Football is a team sport, a defense is like a chain. One weak link and the whole thing breaks. This year we have weak links at SS and CB (hence we're exploited in the deep passing game, and consequently the LBs can't be turned loose to blitz) and a weak link at DT (the middle of the line gets plowed out of the way, consequently LBs can't flow into the gap to make tackles).

We don't need much tweaking of the scheme. It still works. We just need the players to make it work. You can't blitz if you can't cover. And if you can't stop the run, it doesn't matter if you can't cover because teams will just run on you all day.

If any changes need to be made, it's in GW's attitude. He needs to be more humble and honest with himself in assessing what he needs to make his scheme click.
I agree 100% on D-line's responsibilities, in any defensive scheme, the d-line's responsibility is to tie-up the o-line so the linebackers can make plays.

And in this year's draft there are 3 DTs that can do that in the top 10.
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