Good for Campbell

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by MonkFan4Life

Secondly in that KC game Todd Collins got a delay of game because he was changing the protection. He made line adjustments.

i commented on the exact same thing after that game as well. the very first snap when collins came in he made an adjustment. now that play ended up being a false start or delay of game but the next play, same formation was a bomb to moss.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by MonkFan4Life

GTripp you say that Zorn calls protections in the plays right ? Go to Redskins.com and look up the post game press conference from 9-14-08 when we beat New Orleans. Listen to what Jim Zorn says about what Jason did and what they are working with him on. Secondly in that KC game Todd Collins got a delay of game because he was changing the protection. He made line adjustments. I feel that my opinion is good enough but I'm so persistent with my views because you all are so persistent in tellung me that I'm wrong for what I see. I don't get how you and so many other skins fans revere this guy. Let me stop with my overtly feminine and tiresome me against the world routine.

Be easy.

I appreciate how you can type up a nice post and be very eloquent with your delivery but it still doesn't prove a thing. If you have your own opinion of how things went you do. I see something different. Like I said his play has and will do the talking. It has said enough for me to say that he's sorry but you all see a star.

I don't think Collins was changing the protection on the play you reference, but obviously, the play clock is a limiting factor on how much you can tweak a play. Either way, tweaking the protection and setting it are two different things.

My point is you are not alone in your opinion. Other people see what you do. I have seen what you are referencing. I also see every other play, and make note of the negative, but do not dwell on it. I don't dwell on the positive either. There are many plays in a fb season. Campbell had almost 550 plays last year. He missed a wide open receiver maybe 8-9 times. He might have passed on a tough but makable throw two or three times as often.

If of 550 plays in the season, there are 180 bad plays made by the quarterback (sacks, avoidable incompletions, interceptions), and 20-30 of them are because the quarterback got confused and missed his read or held the ball too long, and cost the team some points and perhaps half a win to a win, well, there's room for improvement. But by NFL standards, there's not a problem.

We see the same film evidence. I might see it a few times more than most, but it's not a matter of differences in evidence. It's about understanding what a bad QB play is in NFL, and the best QBs in the NFL make 5-6 really bad QB plays in a single season.

***

If we used logic consistent with the anti-Campbell arguments, the Saints should at least think about finding someone better than Drew Brees. Because he makes more than a few bad plays in any season, and if quarterbacks make bad plays, we have to hold them accountable. Drew Brees should be held accountable for his mistakes, and, thusly, the Saints should have been more aggressive in trying to acquire Donovan McNabb.

A good analyst focuses on the 150 plays that went bad with Campbell doing his job at least respectably. Doesn't make the other 30 excusable mistakes, but if you fix 8 mistakes by changing the QB to someone better, and now have 170 bad passing plays in a season, well, what have you really done?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

There's film evidence of Campbell misreading the coverage, missing open receivers, and not giving plays a chance to develop. There's just as much, if not more, film evidence of him doing a good job in the presnap phase, making fast reads, getting to third and fourth receivers, and making great throw under pressure (he's a top ten quarterback, statistically, under pressure).

I would argue against this point. He consistently misread pre-snap coverages and when the first option was covered went straight to his checkdown ignoring the second/third reads. Nor did he "make a bunch of great throws under pressure". What was more prevalent on film was Campbell making decent throws if his first read was open or using his size and stregth to avoid a rush and make a dump-off play for solid yardage. Under pressure he often misfired, missed secondary options, or forced a pass into double/triple coverage or a bad spot in a zone.....actually he did this with no pressure too.

Campbell had almost 550 plays last year. He missed a wide open receiver maybe 8-9 times. He might have passed on a tough but makable throw two or three times as often.

If of 550 plays in the season, there are 180 bad plays made by the quarterback (sacks, avoidable incompletions, interceptions), and 20-30 of them are because the quarterback got confused and missed his read or held the ball too long, and cost the team some points and perhaps half a win to a win, well, there's room for improvement. But by NFL standards, there's not a problem.

Are you saying that JC only made 2 or less bad plays (mis-reads of coverage, blitz protection, audibles, bad progressions, bad throws) and that his play was responsible for no more than one loss last year or am I misreading what you said?

A good analyst focuses on the 150 plays that went bad with Campbell doing his job at least respectably. Doesn't make the other 30 excusable mistakes, but if you fix 8 mistakes by changing the QB to someone better, and now have 170 bad passing plays in a season, well, what have you really done?

A good analyst doesn't focus primarily on stats but looks at them in context. A good analyst also focuses on the game situation and evaluates a player's performance based on plays that are made/not made when all other positions do their job. If the OL gives up a sack it's not on the QB, WR drops a ball not on the QB, QB makes a piss-poor read and throws into double coverage and gets lucky the DB dropped the ball...very bad play the QB, not just an INCP. QB misreads coverage and launches a ball down the sideline for an INT, but missed a wide open WR as a second progression that would've been a 20 yd+ play....terrible play by the QB.

Please tell me you aren't suggesting the difference between a top tier QB and Campbell is 8 plays a season. Campbell was in the top ten in Comp % last year, take a look at the other guys above him and the next five below him. Tell me what you notice about his stat line vs. those other guys.....it's glaring and considered the most important stat for a QB.

JC was second in the league in YAC at 54.3% behind only Stafford for guys throwing for over 1000 yards. This is not a good stat, your top tier QBs are generally in the 44-46% YAC range. This indicates what we all see on film....JC got a lot of yardage from dump-offs and screens. No one is nominating Zorn for the HoF for coaching, but he scaled his offense to what Campbell could do....and it wasn't an effective mid-deep passing game. I don't have the exact stat, but if I remember correctly JC was also top or close to tops in the NFL in passes thrown within 10 yds of the LoS.

If JC was anything other than a lower level starter or solid backup, why did we only get a 4th rounder in 2012 for him....from the Raiders, who were basically QB-less. Conversely we gave up a high 2nd and 3rd/4th in 2011 for McNabb on what could turn out to be (worst case) a one year rental and McNabb is what, six years older than JC.


Quick link on the Raiders/Cowboys game....the parts about JC are same-old, same-old.

The Canadian Press: Raiders first-team offence under QB Jason Campbell struggles in exhibition opener


All that being said, Campbell is certainly no "bum" as some have suggested. Ryan Leaf is a bum, JaMarshmellow is a bum. Campbell is a good teammate and a high character guy. His QB performance/progression last year left something to be desired, but he's no bum.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Quick link on the Raiders/Cowboys game....the parts about JC are same-old, same-old.

The Canadian Press: Raiders first-team offence under QB Jason Campbell struggles in exhibition opener

From that article:

"Campbell was 7 for 13 for 49 yards in his first game with the Raiders, with most of his completions coming on short passes underneath."

Hate to beat the dead horse, but yeah, same old, same old.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I would argue against this point. He consistently misread pre-snap coverages and when the first option was covered went straight to his checkdown ignoring the second/third reads. Nor did he "make a bunch of great throws under pressure". What was more prevalent on film was Campbell making decent throws if his first read was open or using his size and stregth to avoid a rush and make a dump-off play for solid yardage. Under pressure he often misfired, missed secondary options, or forced a pass into double/triple coverage or a bad spot in a zone.....actually he did this with no pressure too.

I'd say go deeper into the season, w/film instead of assuming that six or seven games make a season. Campbell looked a lot like 2008 Campbell for the first six weeks after the bye.

Of course, a lot of the bad habits you saw reappeared in the Week 15 and 16 games, so I guess you could say he was never "above" the influence of a poor offense, just feeding off weak pass defenses. Which supports the whole "Jason Campbell is a good quarterback on a level playing field" theory. That's all I'm saying.

Like I said a million times after the season, it doesn't matter who your quarterback is if you are worse than everyone you play. The story of the Bills game is that we were a completely better team at every level than them. That's far more important that the abstract concept of QB leadership, IMO.

Are you saying that JC only made 2 or less bad plays (mis-reads of coverage, blitz protection, audibles, bad progressions, bad throws) and that his play was responsible for no more than one loss last year or am I misreading what you said?

Uh, no. I'm pretty sure I never said Campbell only made two bad plays.

Two a game, perhaps.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'd say go deeper into the season, w/film instead of assuming that six or seven games make a season. Campbell looked a lot like 2008 Campbell for the first six weeks after the bye.

Of course, a lot of the bad habits you saw reappeared in the Week 15 and 16 games, so I guess you could say he was never "above" the influence of a poor offense, just feeding off weak pass defenses. Which supports the whole "Jason Campbell is a good quarterback on a level playing field" theory. That's all I'm saying.

Like I said a million times after the season, it doesn't matter who your quarterback is if you are worse than everyone you play. The story of the Bills game is that we were a completely better team at every level than them. That's far more important that the abstract concept of QB leadership, IMO.Uh, no. I'm pretty sure I never said Campbell only made two bad plays.

Two a game, perhaps.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on JC's performance, and I did review the games throughout the year, just didn't have time to do the detailed write ups.

I meant 2 times per game, I know I wrote it incorrectly, sorry about that. I would argue the 2 times per game was not accurate and it was significantly more. But again,


Anyway, time to move on, JC's a good young man and hopefully he'll prove my evaluation of him wrong. Let's hope when we look at film this year we're just splitting hairs on how the Skins could've been more dominant in their 10+ wins.

[mcnabb5]

[quote]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I'd say go deeper into the season, w/film instead of assuming that six or seven games make a season. Campbell looked a lot like 2008 Campbell for the first six weeks after the bye.

Of course, a lot of the bad habits you saw reappeared in the Week 15 and 16 games, so I guess you could say he was never "above" the influence of a poor offense, just feeding off weak pass defenses. Which supports the whole "Jason Campbell is a good quarterback on a level playing field" theory. That's all I'm saying.

Like I said a million times after the season, it doesn't matter who your quarterback is if you are worse than everyone you play. The story of the Bills game is that we were a completely better team at every level than them. That's far more important that the abstract concept of QB leadership, IMO.Uh, no. I'm pretty sure I never said Campbell only made two bad plays.

Two a game, perhaps.[/QUOTE]

Dude face it u lost the jason arguments.

To end the whole famous discusion about Jason let it be known about this.

Traded for a 4th round 2012 round pick *Jason Campbell* he was always bad and never lived up to his potiential as the next D williams. ..and he was horrible.

Monk 4 congrats man you perfected the argument about jason. Jason is a bum...I remember the 17-0 loss to the cowboys when Collinsworth went on the dude all day.

[GTripp0012]

The other problem is that you're creating a strawman that we all see a "star". I think, if his development had gone perfectly (and I think it's gone disasterously), Campbell could have been a multi-time pro-bowler.

But you wouldn't have expected to go perfectly (Tom Brady's development, I'd describe as perfect. Philip Rivers, ditto), as there's many uncontrollable variables in a QBs development. I don't think there was a high probability, coming out of Auburn, that Campbell was going to be a star, here or elsewhere. With that said, we've probably ruined him, to a degree, but he didn't exactly remind anyone of Sonny Jurgensen in his first camp.

I don't think you'll find anyone who "sees a star." Not one fan. Redskins or Raiders.

[skinsfaninok]

Why are we still arguing about JC? The guy isn't any good or here anymore. Oakland is bad and he can't make them better.

[MTK]

Nobody reveres him or thinks he's a star. He's a middle of the road QB. He's no Manning or Brady, but he's certainly not garbage or a bum. This is just beyond silly now.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Nobody reveres him or thinks he's a star. He's a middle of the road QB. He's no Manning or Brady, but he's certainly not garbage or a bum.

QFMFT. It's so tiring trying to defend this position which should be fairly obvious now. The argument that anyone who doesn't think Campbell is a pox on the NFL must instead believe he's a star in the making is such a straw man and bothering to try and explain why it's so ridiculous reminds one of a saying about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics.

[MTK]

I think he needs to be with another team or two to technically be considered a journeyman.

[Redskin Jim]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I think he needs to be with another team or two to technically be considered a journeyman.

Do you mean we don't have a good enough evidence sample to determine JC is a journeyman? If so, I agree. I will also stick to my opinion that that's what he has shown me he is so far.

[Ruhskins]

This is another topic people need to get over with. My God, why do we have such whining fans. I don't think even Vinny get such anger-filled posts.

[MonkFan4Life]

Alright so I attacked his character by pointing out that he much like a teammate of his "threw the O-Line" under the bus ? If that's attacking his character then you are making my point. There was a double standard that he could say something and it was okay but if someone else did then it may or may not be wrong. When I spoke about him I never attacked him as a person, I attacked him as a player. His play on the field, not what he did for children but what he did on the field. Maybe that was wrong of me, if I can't talk about him as a player then why are we here ? Like I said in another thread I can go on Albert Haynesworth, Clinton Portis, Dan Snyder, Vinny Cerato, and whoever else the majority deems worthy of slander here but not the ones that you all view as being liked. GTripp I wasn't saying that Collins was the answer just making an observation that we had enough and a guy who had less talent than Jason IMO was able to produce against good, not bad teams. And Todd Collins was calling protections. If he wasn't he told someone something. He pointed something out. Checked a receivers route. But if you didn't see it then it didn't happen I guess. i know what I saw, I know what I see the good QB's do. JC just didn't do it IMO. There is an article that came out prior to the '09 season where JC speaks about having less to think about because the O-Line has blitz rules and he doesn't have to call his protections. You say that the systems that we had did not ask for the QB to call a protection because the coaches did it. Really ? So when the middle linebacker changes something the QB isn't allowed to ? If you looked at the video I pointed out to you then you would know that you were fairly incorrect on that one.

I just finished watching Donovan lead a scoring drive. The latest #17 is no longer here and I am seriously done talking about him. If you all are confused in any way about what I've said in this post then I don't know what to do. Last but not least, SolidSnake I was serious. Once again I was just giving yet another example of the Jason Campbell double standard. Where yes Portis was a headache for Jim Zorn, and he was said to have thrown JC under the bus but all he did was say what JC would say about himself. MAYBE you all don't remember but Jason himself would say that he is not an in your face vocal leader. That's all that Clinton said, JC took it to heart but all Clinton really did was reaffirm what Jason said about himself.

To end, SirClintonPortis you are funny. I have a personal vendetta against him because I say that he's not a good QB ? Never made this thing personal, please take time to actually read what I said and if I said anything about his character as a man, human being, guy from the south, whatever please show me where.

Damn my Skins look good.