All things offseason discussion part II

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SirLK26

To both of your questions( Is it okay to say, "Your homosexuality will be a distraction that outweighs your talent so I will not sign you?", and "Can I cut a more talented player who will cause a distraction based on their gender-preference to retain a lesser talented player who creates no such distraction?"), absolutely. You can do whatever the heck you want to improve your football team, as long as it's within the NFL rules. Sort of like how kids on the playground always pick certain kids last because there are other kids who will ultimately help them win more. It may not be the kindest, or in Sam's case if he had remained unsigned or gets cut, the most popular by public opinion, but if you think a player will bring more distractions than he's worth, you can absolutely cut him or not sign him, gay or straight.

Just b/c it's legal, doesn't make it right. Sure, teams can cut him for any reason, and, yes, winning is the ultimate measurement. At the same time, where is the line. Again, using an extreme example, a coach for a winning team thinks his team will have better teamwork and camaraderie if the roster is composed only of black players. He manipulates the roster to achieve this result and continues to win. Acceptable? Hey, they win and a talented white player might either (a) disrupt the camaraderie or (b) create a distraction by being the only white guy on the team. Thus, even if more talented, the white guy is not going to be drafted/signed. Acceptable? Your only distinction from Sam's situation is that NOW such behavior is seen as blatantly impermissible. 60 years ago, was that reasoning right/ethical when used to prohibit blacks from playing on major league teams? If it was unethical then, why is it ethical now?

Additional, the whole concept that Sam's sexual orientation creates a distraction brings us back to NC Skins point way back when ... What kind of coach accepts this as a permissible distraction? Even if media driven.

Originally Posted by SirLK26

Your post leads me to believe that you think that if Sam is one of the best 53 on the Rams' team, he should remain on the team even if the distractions become so fierce that their locker room divides(unlikely, I know, but play along.) And the only reason you would keep him is because he's gay and it would be discriminatory to cut him. If Sam were straight and he became that big of a distraction, you would cut him immediately, even if he were one of the best 53, am I right?

Nothing is an absolute. Again, at what point does it become acceptable for teams to factor sexual orientation into roster decisions. If you believe I am saying never, I simply have not made myself clear. I don't know when. I haven't heard a persuasive argument leading to an imperative answer. On the other hand, it seems to me you are saying "Whenever they feel like it." If that is true, doesn't it give license to use "distractions" as a cover for unfair discrimination.

It's not a question of what can they do. It's a question of, ethically, what should they do. What level of distraction should a team bear to do the right thing?

None! Okay - why not?
Whatever level is necessary to do what is right! Okay, why?

Someone convince me.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

As for your statement: "If Sam were gay, but Dungy knew he wouldn't be a distraction, Dungy would draft him." As it applies to Sam, it is a logical fallacy.
The logical statement: "If x, but not y, then z."
In your statement: x= Sam is gay; y= a distraction; z= gets drafted

The logical fallacy is that the only way that Sam is "not a distraction" is if he is "not gay". Thus:

1. not y (not a distraction) = not x (not gay); consequently
2. y (distraction) = x (gay); thus,
3. If x, but not x, then z.

A result cannot occur conditioned on the simultaneous existence and nonexistence of "x". Because Sam is gay, Dungy will always assume he will be a distraction. [Again, if Sam were a first round talent, superstar then no gender based discrimination occurs. The gender based discrimination occurs only because Sam's talent does not outweigh the distraction caused by his gayness].

The offseason is truly a living Hell.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

The offseason is truly a living Hell.

Based on the year round, 24/7 flood of information, analysis and activities of the current NFL reality, your assertion logically invalidates the existence of "a living hell." In your statement, "the offseason" = x and "a living hell"= y, and, further, x=y. In the current NFL, however, "the offseason" does not exist. Thus, x does not exist, and, therefore, y (its equal) cannot exist either.

Therefore, logically, you must be in Happy Funland on a year round basis.

[SirLK26]

JoeR, my position is simple. If any player is more of a hindrance than a help, for whatever reason, it is within both my moral rules and NFL's rules to release him. If you disagree, well, I can't convince you otherwise.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Based on the year round, 24/7 flood of information, analysis and activities of the current NFL reality, your assertion logically invalidates the existence of "a living hell." In your statement, "the offseason" = x and "a living hell"= y, and, further, x=y. In the current NFL, however, "the offseason" does not exist. Thus, x does not exist, and, therefore, y (its equal) cannot exist either.

Therefore, logically, you must be in Happy Funland on a year round basis.

[Dirtbag59]

Ravens expect NFL to be “fair” and “judicious” to Ray Rice | ProFootballTalk

The fact that the NFL is tougher on recreational drug use then domestic violence is just disgusting.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

I think some of you guys are being absolutely ridiculous. Tony Dungy elaborates on his comments made on Monday:

Tony Dungy Elaborates on his remark about Michael Sam

"The best players make the team, and everyone should get the opportunity to prove whether they’re good enough to play. That’s my opinion as a coach. But those were not the questions I was asked. What I was asked about was my philosophy of drafting, a philosophy that was developed over the years, which was to minimize distractions for my teams.

I do not believe Michael’s sexual orientation will be a distraction to his teammates or his organization.

I do, however, believe that the media attention that comes with it will be a distraction. Unfortunately we are all seeing this play out now, and I feel badly that my remarks played a role in the distraction."


And this was the comment I was about the make until I saw the statement. Some of you guys were very quick to judge Tony Dungy.

Not changing my opinion. Here's a guy who preaches giving everyone a chance, who calls teams on behalf of players to get them second, third, fourth chances even when they are known "distractions" but it's too much for him to handle? Maybe it is, maybe that's why he's sitting in a studio on Sunday nights now

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Not changing my opinion. Here's a guy who preaches giving everyone a chance, who calls teams on behalf of players to get them second, third, fourth chances even when they are known "distractions" but it's too much for him to handle? Maybe it is, maybe that's why he's sitting in a studio on Sunday nights now

Hiyoooo!

[Dirtbag59]

Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't push Quick Reply. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved. Don't get involved.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Not changing my opinion. Here's a guy who preaches giving everyone a chance, who calls teams on behalf of players to get them second, third, fourth chances even when they are known "distractions" but it's too much for him to handle? Maybe it is, maybe that's why he's sitting in a studio on Sunday nights now

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

(logically speaking that is.)

[JoeRedskin]

Methinks this is not the first time Mr. Dungy has been less than enthusiastic about endorsing a player such as Sam. From a 2007 article:

In a recent appearance on the HBO series Costas Now, Colts coach Tony Dungy showed his true colors. Dungy, a devout Christian, was initially asked if he'd have a problem with having a Muslim, Jew, or atheist on his team. Dungy immediately answered no. He doesn’t proselytize to his players, he said. Costas followed up with the same question about an openly gay player.

And Dungy paused.

He actually paused and crossed his arms—in obvious discomfort—before responding with canned blather about letting the player know what he thinks, and what the Bible says. Dungy also said that if the player were good he'd have no problem with it. But if that's the case—why the pause? Why the discomfort?

Why the discomfort? Well - b/c its distracting, that why.

Tony Dungy on Homosexuality: Bigotry Is Bigotry | Bleacher Report

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Not changing my opinion. Here's a guy who preaches giving everyone a chance, who calls teams on behalf of players to get them second, third, fourth chances even when they are known "distractions" but it's too much for him to handle? Maybe it is, maybe that's why he's sitting in a studio on Sunday nights now

What, exactly, are the other known distractions that Tony Dungy has allowed on his team? I can't name any right off the top of my head. You have a player who had signed a deal with the Opera Network to have a reality TV show which will follow him around during his first year as a pro. Just him, not the whole team. All because of his sexuality. I can see how this would be a distraction for not only the team, but Sam himself. This is much different from Hard Knocks. Look, my take on it is, if his sexuality is not a big deal, why is Michael Sam making it a big deal? Better yet, why is the media making it such a big deal? If it truly was one of these, "Oh, your gay, that's cool...go on about my business" sort of deal, then I see the point against what Dungy said. Even I said I thought he sounded a bit hypocritical. But at the same time, everybody associated with Michael Sam, himself, Opera, the media - they're all treating it like it's a big deal. And that is where the distraction comes in. How many times did I have to hear, during the draft, about which team is going to make the "historic" draft pick of a gay player? Honestly, I think it's a bit hypocritical to for people to say that gay players should be treated like any other player entering the NFL draft, yet they celebrate such a "historic" event. Can't have it both ways.

As a coach, you can temper other types of distractions, such as the situation with Vick, or if a player was involved in some off field legal manners. A coach can easily say, "Don't talk to the media about this stuff, say no comment, say you're focus is only on football, etc...." But obviously someone's sexuality is such a hyper sensitive subject that if a coach tells his gay player the same thing about his homosexuality, that coach is labeled homophobic and bigot because the player can't be "free" to express his sexuality. It's a whole different distraction. So I can see it from Dungy's point of view. Maybe he is homophobic. Who knows? Just find it quite hypocritical for people to give Tim Tebow such a hard time because he was so up front about his Christian faith, and then think it's great for Michael Sam to be out about his sexuality. Guarantee that if you have gotten tired of hearing about Tebow, it's going to be the same deal with Sam.

[dmek25]

facts are that sam is the first OPENLY gay player in the league, not the first GAY player.if he is good enough, he will make the team. dungy is obviously a bigot, preaching the lord's word, but not practicing it

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Based on the year round, 24/7 flood of information, analysis and activities of the current NFL reality, your assertion logically invalidates the existence of "a living hell." In your statement, "the offseason" = x and "a living hell"= y, and, further, x=y. In the current NFL, however, "the offseason" does not exist. Thus, x does not exist, and, therefore, y (its equal) cannot exist either.

Therefore, logically, you must be in Happy Funland on a year round basis.

If this is Happy Funland then John Wayne Gacy must be the clown.

I WANT SOME DAMN FOOTBALL!

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

What, exactly, are the other known distractions that Tony Dungy has allowed on his team? I can't name any right off the top of my head. You have a player who had signed a deal with the Opera Network to have a reality TV show which will follow him around during his first year as a pro. Just him, not the whole team. All because of his sexuality. I can see how this would be a distraction for not only the team, but Sam himself. This is much different from Hard Knocks. Look, my take on it is, if his sexuality is not a big deal, why is Michael Sam making it a big deal? Better yet, why is the media making it such a big deal? If it truly was one of these, "Oh, your gay, that's cool...go on about my business" sort of deal, then I see the point against what Dungy said. Even I said I thought he sounded a bit hypocritical. But at the same time, everybody associated with Michael Sam, himself, Opera, the media - they're all treating it like it's a big deal. And that is where the distraction comes in. How many times did I have to hear, during the draft, about which team is going to make the "historic" draft pick of a gay player? Honestly, I think it's a bit hypocritical to for people to say that gay players should be treated like any other player entering the NFL draft, yet they celebrate such a "historic" event. Can't have it both ways.

As a coach, you can temper other types of distractions, such as the situation with Vick, or if a player was involved in some off field legal manners. A coach can easily say, "Don't talk to the media about this stuff, say no comment, say you're focus is only on football, etc...." But obviously someone's sexuality is such a hyper sensitive subject that if a coach tells his gay player the same thing about his homosexuality, that coach is labeled homophobic and bigot because the player can't be "free" to express his sexuality. It's a whole different distraction. So I can see it from Dungy's point of view. Maybe he is homophobic. Who knows? Just find it quite hypocritical for people to give Tim Tebow such a hard time because he was so up front about his Christian faith, and then think it's great for Michael Sam to be out about his sexuality. Guarantee that if you have gotten tired of hearing about Tebow, it's going to be the same deal with Sam.

Michael Vick had a reality show too during his first year back with the NFL for what it's worth

Anyway, I think you and I just disagree on this and that's ok. I'm ready to move on to some actual football

Also, Opera Network...lol

[SmootSmack]

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen steps down to deal with Alzheimer's disease