Brees and Rivers and the Market for Ramsey

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well there are so many goofy things going on with your argument, I don't know where to start.

#1 You seem to want to assume that Ramsey wants to stay and be a backup here. Where the hell are you getting that idea? Or is this just another one of your assumptions for arguments' sake? Ramsey requested a trade earlier in the season, and his situation has not gotten better, there's no way he'll want to stay, and Gibbs doesn't like to keep guys who don't want to be here. Let's deal in reality, not a bunch of who-struck-John assumptions.

Now YOUR ASSUMING he doesn't want to stay. It has been denied numerous times by all involved that he ever asked for a trade. Whether it's true or not it HAS been denied. Even if he did ask for a trade is it hard to fathom that he could change his mind? Maybe he thinks all of a sudden this is a great opp for him. I don't know but it is possible. Point is we don't know.
I was postulating a theoretical idea that, admittedly I wasn't clear about, I applied to this situation. If you don't want to discuss a theoretical idea then that's fine but don't denigrate someone for it.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

#2 You seem to suggest that it will help Campbell if he's the #3 instead of the #2. Newsflash man, but the #3 never sees the field. At least the #2 has a shot at seeing some real live action at some point. Guys need to play to get any better, or at least get a decent share of practice reps. Nobody gets better by sitting idle. Eli progressed by playing, Roethisberger, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, all of them.

Young QBs don't "need to play to get better" For every guy you mentioned there can be 3 or 4 that were given similar opps and never panned out. I don't think it is unreasonable to say a second year guy can still get value out of being the third stringer. Maybe he can get more value out of that than being the second stringer and getting forced into action before he is mentally ready. I don't know but it seems to me that it cant hurt. Seeing as this is how Gibbs did it in the past I would guess he thinks much the same way. I agree letting Campbell play more could well get him to super star status within a couple seasons. Or it could have him flipping burgers back in Alabama by the time he is 26. I don't really want to argue this because neither of us is really right. Some guys it will help to play and some it won't. Plus I am not arguing that the best thing to do for Campbell is to sit him as the 3rd guy. I am saying for the Skins having him as the 3rd guy increases the likelihood that he will be great and provides future depth. This is down the line but it most likely increase those things By how much? Who knows.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

#3 Letting Campbell stay as the 3rd and keeping Ramsey as our second does hurt us, in the salary cap department. Ramsey would take up a couple million of room next year. Instead we could make Campbell the #2 which he will be perfectly capable of, and we can get another rookie or some vet in for minimum pay. Plus, if we keep Ramsey through this year, it hurts us from a GM perspective because he'll fly the coop in January 2007 as a free agent, I'd rather get a 3rd or 4th rounder for him this year.

Now your debating whether the idea of keeping 3 good QBs is good or not and that's cool to me. I personally think that I am not sure. How's that for confusing? The thought I presented came from looking at what they did this year and wondering if they might try it again next year. If they do and it is successful maybe the way the rest of the league handles the position isn't always the right way to go and keeping the three is a good long term solution to the position. I know it ties up money in the cap but maybe it is worth it. As far as getting value for Ramsey I guess that gets weighed against what value you have for him as your second stringer. I'd love to end up getting something for him too if they aren't going to keep him. I'm not suggesting we keep him for no good reason.

Originally Posted by Schneed10

#4 There is no such thing as growing and maturing without pressure at the QB position. The QB position is all about pressure and how you handle it. If QBs need to be shielded from pressure, then they're in the long line of work. If anything, you want to expose young QBs to pressure to see how they'll respond. We all could see Tom Brady was going to be a good one in his first year of action, because how poised and calm he remained in big pressure situations. 2006 would be a good time to expose Campbell to that as a #2 and find out how he'll respond. We already know Ramsey doesn't respond well to those situations.

Well that's a fundamental argument. Could it be that having a QB trained well in his mechanics and understanding the offense completely enough to have supreme confidence when he finally gets put into pressure situation will be even more successful than trial by fire? Maybe, maybe not. I tend to go with my more conservative approach while many others go with yours. Again it depends on the player in question I can't honestly comment on Campbell since I have no idea what the guy can handle. I would say that maybe Ramsey would respond better now knowing the offense more completely and seeing how it was run by a vet. I look at PRs deficiencies as not being in the "pressure-handling" area but more in the decision making area. But that's just me.

[railcon56]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

He followed up that crappy preseason with a crappy game against the Bears. There's no way Ramsey hits 2 TDs to Moss in the last five minutes of the game against Dallas. That alone would have given the Cowboys one more win and one more loss for us, meaning we'd be watching Dallas play the Bucs this weekend.

I think you're nuts, FRPLG. You need to let go of this love affair with Patrick Ramsey. At what point do you move on and realize he's not going to cut it as a championship QB? How many more inconsistent performances do you need to see?

Maybe He wouldn't have needed 2 desperate passes either?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

It has been reported that during the draft process before Cooley was drafted Parcells told Cooley, during a visit to the Cowboys, that he was no better than a depth/backup player in the NFL based on the film Parcells had watched on him. Parcells is clearly a master talent evaluator as well as a master talent motivator. Or maybe he is just a master asshole.

Absolutly! Parcells was dead on with that one. And as far as talent evaluation when it comes to QB's, he passed on Delhome because he didn't believe he was worth an extra million which Delhome recieved from Carolina, only to winde up with the million dollar arm, and the ten cent brain in Bledsoe for his QB, nice job Bill!

As far as Ramsey is concerned, nobody here has seen him in a legitamate offense in the NFL, all he did was run for his life when SS was here, and he threw it extremly well under SS whenever he wasen't being lambasted by a defender after 3 step's. He then played some last season in a Gibbs offense that was going no where. Then he get's outplayed by Brunell in the pre-season, of coarse he was facing mostly starters, while a seasoned veteran in Brunell moved the ball against the A-P bag boys, Brunell had more success but he wasen't anything remotly spectacular in the pre-season.

Then comes the Bears game, a reciever runs the wrong route and Ramsey is blamed for the INT, he then gets closed line and fumbles on a personel foul and nothing is called, after he drove the ball twice down the throats of what has become the best defense in the NFL. Enter Brunell, now everyone wants to focus on Patrick's TO's yet we are not to look at Brunells 2 TO's the very next game against the cowboys, now Gibbs allowed Brunell to redeem himself, and he did with 2 miracle throws in the last 4 minutes after being as pathetic as a QB can be for the first 56 minutes.

To bad Patrick wasen't given that same chance by Gibbs, the deck was always stacked in Brunells favor, Ramsey has been treated like the redheaded step child since Gibbs arrived.

The real killer here is Gibbs can succeed with just about anyone at QB, Rypien, Williams, and Schroeder, so it is no surprise that he is now succeeding with Brunell, who IMO is better than the 3 I just mentioned, but to say Ramsey wouldn't succeed either is nonesense, Ramsey IMO is better than those 3 as well, and would be enjoying the same kind of success that Brunell is now, he has not had a real opportunity to prove himself PERIOD! If you want to believe that he won't succeed if given a fair chance [you know like Brunell recieved all last season] then fine, but to say he's already failed is nonesense.

[amorentz]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Abraham is a better rushing the passer off the edge than anyone we have by miles - you take that deal for Ramsey, and restructure Abraham's contract if necessary. Sadly, the Skins almost certainly will have to part ways with LaVar. His $12M cap figure next year makes that a virtual forgone conclusion. Thank goodness we have Marcus Washington locked up at a lesser figure.

Actually, from a cap standpoint it costs about $500k more to cut Lavar than to keep him. So unless Snyder wants to save actual dollars, theres really no reason to get rid of him unless we get blown away with a trade offer...

[bedlamVR]

It is a point that Ramsey is in his final year of his contract if it were me and if it were an option I would redo my contract in the offseason to bring his cap figure down from the 3 million it is now. Make the deal more of that of a backup but not less than the kid and aim to start next year as a Redskin.

Given the number of first round picks in previous years that have dropped totally out of the NFL (Cade McCown, Alki Smith, Tim Couch?) and with no clear cut chances on better or equal teams might Ramseys best option not be here and be the interim/insurance guy between Brunell and Cambell?

In 2004 he spent much of the year rehabbing his injury and didn't have a fair shot at unseating Brunell, in 2005 he had the entire offseason to get more comfortable with Gibbs offence but still didn't get it (not long enough) but 2006 is a new year a new chance to show coach how much he has grown and try and win the now three way competition a new .

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by offiss

Absolutly! Parcells was dead on with that one. And as far as talent evaluation when it comes to QB's, he passed on Delhome because he didn't believe he was worth an extra million which Delhome recieved from Carolina, only to winde up with the million dollar arm, and the ten cent brain in Bledsoe for his QB, nice job Bill!

As far as Ramsey is concerned, nobody here has seen him in a legitamate offense in the NFL, all he did was run for his life when SS was here, and he threw it extremly well under SS whenever he wasen't being lambasted by a defender after 3 step's. He then played some last season in a Gibbs offense that was going no where. Then he get's outplayed by Brunell in the pre-season, of coarse he was facing mostly starters, while a seasoned veteran in Brunell moved the ball against the A-P bag boys, Brunell had more success but he wasen't anything remotly spectacular in the pre-season.

Then comes the Bears game, a reciever runs the wrong route and Ramsey is blamed for the INT, he then gets closed line and fumbles on a personel foul and nothing is called, after he drove the ball twice down the throats of what has become the best defense in the NFL. Enter Brunell, now everyone wants to focus on Patrick's TO's yet we are not to look at Brunells 2 TO's the very next game against the cowboys, now Gibbs allowed Brunell to redeem himself, and he did with 2 miracle throws in the last 4 minutes after being as pathetic as a QB can be for the first 56 minutes.

To bad Patrick wasen't given that same chance by Gibbs, the deck was always stacked in Brunells favor, Ramsey has been treated like the redheaded step child since Gibbs arrived.

The real killer here is Gibbs can succeed with just about anyone at QB, Rypien, Williams, and Schroeder, so it is no surprise that he is now succeeding with Brunell, who IMO is better than the 3 I just mentioned, but to say Ramsey wouldn't succeed either is nonesense, Ramsey IMO is better than those 3 as well, and would be enjoying the same kind of success that Brunell is now, he has not had a real opportunity to prove himself PERIOD! If you want to believe that he won't succeed if given a fair chance [you know like Brunell recieved all last season] then fine, but to say he's already failed is nonesense.

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of mastery in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the QB master is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with WHAT IS. I believe PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. I know Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

2006 would be a good time to expose Campbell to that as a #2 and find out how he'll respond. We already know Ramsey doesn't respond well to those situations.

Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Hog1

WARNING: this is not a personal attack.

Easy Mr. Ramsey, Young Patricks time will come.
I must admit I am surprised that in one sentence you suggest that Gibbs made success's out of three different QB's. THAT would suggest a certain level of mastery in that area. In the next breath, you suggest Ramsey is better than Brunell and all three of the others. Do you now believe the QB master is so blind to overlook such a super talent? You CONTINUALLY confuse what may be, with WHAT IS. I believe PR has a lot of talent and will get to display it when the time is right. I know Mark Brunell has this team poised to make a Super Bowl run.
ALL the casino's in Las Vegas are built by the money of people willing to take the emotional position, rather than the objective one. It's cool to be a Ramsey homer, but is does affect your objectivity.

Probably one of the better, if not the best, balanced Ramsey v. Brunell posts I've seen.

Good Post, man.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?

In all fairness South, you know that was one helluva catch by Moss.

I do, however, feel that Ramsey responded well after Brunell went down.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

In all fairness South, you know that was one helluva catch by Moss.

I do, however, feel that Ramsey responded well after Brunell went down.

I agree. The catch by Moss was impressive, but Will Allen was in position to make a play on it, if the pass had been exactly where it was supposed to be. Ramsey was also looking to his checkdowns, and getting it out of his hands quickly. He looked like a completely different quarterback than he did in preseason.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I agree. The catch by Moss was impressive, but Will Allen was in position to make a play on it, if the pass had been exactly where it was supposed to be. Ramsey was also looking to his checkdowns, and getting it out of his hands quickly. He looked like a completely different quarterback than he did in preseason.

I'm not suggesting Ramsey isn't capable or won't be a good quaterback. I personally think he'll back here next year.

The Ramsey/Brunell thing is a moot point right now considering where the Skins are and what they've accomplished with Brunell at the helm.

It will be a very interesting off-season at Redskins Park as usual though.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Now YOUR ASSUMING he doesn't want to stay. It has been denied numerous times by all involved that he ever asked for a trade. Whether it's true or not it HAS been denied. Even if he did ask for a trade is it hard to fathom that he could change his mind? Maybe he thinks all of a sudden this is a great opp for him. I don't know but it is possible. Point is we don't know.
I was postulating a theoretical idea that, admittedly I wasn't clear about, I applied to this situation. If you don't want to discuss a theoretical idea then that's fine but don't denigrate someone for it.

Young QBs don't "need to play to get better" For every guy you mentioned there can be 3 or 4 that were given similar opps and never panned out. I don't think it is unreasonable to say a second year guy can still get value out of being the third stringer. Maybe he can get more value out of that than being the second stringer and getting forced into action before he is mentally ready. I don't know but it seems to me that it cant hurt. Seeing as this is how Gibbs did it in the past I would guess he thinks much the same way. I agree letting Campbell play more could well get him to super star status within a couple seasons. Or it could have him flipping burgers back in Alabama by the time he is 26. I don't really want to argue this because neither of us is really right. Some guys it will help to play and some it won't. Plus I am not arguing that the best thing to do for Campbell is to sit him as the 3rd guy. I am saying for the Skins having him as the 3rd guy increases the likelihood that he will be great and provides future depth. This is down the line but it most likely increase those things By how much? Who knows.

Now your debating whether the idea of keeping 3 good QBs is good or not and that's cool to me. I personally think that I am not sure. How's that for confusing? The thought I presented came from looking at what they did this year and wondering if they might try it again next year. If they do and it is successful maybe the way the rest of the league handles the position isn't always the right way to go and keeping the three is a good long term solution to the position. I know it ties up money in the cap but maybe it is worth it. As far as getting value for Ramsey I guess that gets weighed against what value you have for him as your second stringer. I'd love to end up getting something for him too if they aren't going to keep him. I'm not suggesting we keep him for no good reason.

Well that's a fundamental argument. Could it be that having a QB trained well in his mechanics and understanding the offense completely enough to have supreme confidence when he finally gets put into pressure situation will be even more successful than trial by fire? Maybe, maybe not. I tend to go with my more conservative approach while many others go with yours. Again it depends on the player in question I can't honestly comment on Campbell since I have no idea what the guy can handle. I would say that maybe Ramsey would respond better now knowing the offense more completely and seeing how it was run by a vet. I look at PRs deficiencies as not being in the "pressure-handling" area but more in the decision making area. But that's just me.

So basically you're not saying much of anything. Maybe this and maybe that. Theory this and theory that.

I'll also add this: No QB has ever gotten worse because of the fact that they played. If they flopped after playing early in their careers, it's because they sucked in the first place. No QB gets spoiled by playing too early, that's just garbage.

Who in the world gets WORSE at what they do as they gain experience?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

Do you mean like he responded in the Giants game, by throwing a 76 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss after Brunell went down?

That play was all Santana Moss. He came back and adjusted to the ball which was thrown behind him. Then Will Allen stumbled and Moss was gone.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Stumbled or did Moss push him down like a bitch?

I could have sworn it was a combo of Allen back-peddling and Moss pushing him down.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

So basically you're not saying much of anything. Maybe this and maybe that. Theory this and theory that.

I'll also add this: No QB has ever gotten worse because of the fact that they played. If they flopped after playing early in their careers, it's because they sucked in the first place. No QB gets spoiled by playing too early, that's just garbage.

Who in the world gets WORSE at what they do as they gain experience?

That's crap. If you are unable to admit that playing a guy before he is ready can potentially ruin a guy's psyche or even worse put him in position to get hurt then you clearly are clueless on this. To say that you only get better with experience is what is garbage. Experience for the sake of experience doesn't absolutly make a player better. A player has to have the tools both physically and mentally to use that experience as a positive.
If a QB goes in and throws 6 interceptions in a row but has absolutely no idea why it happened said player can't get anything from that experience other than that he sucks. Once you start being unable to contextualize your experience and use it as a learning tool then experience becomes valuable. To contextualize you need mental maturity and an understanding of your mission and the proper technique and procedures to achieve your mission. This is the basic way humans learn not just NFL QBs.