The Right Players For The Offense

[The Zimmermans]

Originally Posted by offiss

Great lines make good backs look great and avg backs look good, obviously Gibbs never understood what he had in the hogs, he's under the impresion that all you need is a high profile back and your off and running, no back can run without good blocking, Clinton Portis coming out of college looked to be a very good change of pace and third down type of back, but he was put into a system that allowed for big gains running the ball where he could use his speed to really run up some serious numbers, but just like most of the backs that go through denver he is a little better than avg back. personally I think he hits the holes to slow, he's still trying to run as if he was in denver waiting for the cut back that never comes. Stephen Jackson [st louis] would have been a much better fit for our offense, not to say we couldn't win with CP, just that 52 mil could have been spent on other players to help with pass protection and opening holes to run through etc. Not that we are capable of evaluating talent regardless of how many picks we have or how much money we have under the cap, we are horrible at talent evaluation.

But if we had a clue of how to draft, how much talent do you think we could have right now without 2 contracts, Brunell and Portis's 94mil? Keep in mind we could have traded Bailey for picks rather than giving up a second rounder, as well as giving up a second rounder for Brunell.

I am not even going to go into the rest of the picks we have thrown away!

Portis is a top 5 back in the nfl. His running style is perfect, he hits holes very quickly, much quicker than Betts may i add, and recently he has been getting in the endzone effectively. He is also a very durable back, look how many carries he had two years ago and last year. this is his first year with injury trouble. YPC is overrated as well, tomlinson had just over 3 ypc his rookie year cause of a weak O-line. Portis is also a very effective receiver, and he seldom loses yards cause he's very effective at always falling forward. Run betts 30 times in a game and see what happens, probably a lot of crashing into his o linemen and a couple fumbles. Portis is our best player (maybe santana moss), he's the franchise, he's our best.

[TrustinGibbs]

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

Portis is not the freaking problem. No back can run when the other team is stacking 8 men in the box because the opposing quarterback cannot throw over the top. The problem is Mark Brunell, he does not keep the other team honest. Without the deep ball threat, teams will continue to take the running game and short passes away.

BENCH BRUNELL.

I agree with this. Offensively we're still adjusting to a new system and that sould be taken into account but Brunell's inability to keep teams honest is killing the base for this offense...the running game. They're stacking against the run because they have no fear of us going deep. On the rare occasion we try to go deep to keep the defense honest Brunell cannot even get out of his own way let alone a pass rusher resulting in alot of sacks and throw aways. The O line could be better but Brunells lack of mobility plays a large role too. Atleast Campbell can scramble and get the ball down field kepping teams alittle more honest IMO.

Also if our defense was at the level we were at the prevous two seasons the offense would be putting up enough point to have a far better record.

Portis is a top notch back who can do it all and plays hard.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by TrustinGibbs

I agree with this. Offensively we're still adjusting to a new system and that sould be taken into account but Brunell's inability to keep teams honest is killing the base for this offense...the running game. They're stacking against the run because they have no fear of us going deep. On the rare occasion we try to go deep to keep the defense honest Brunell cannot even get out of his own way let alone a pass rusher resulting in alot of sacks and throw aways. The O line could be better but Brunells lack of mobility plays a large role too. Atleast Campbell can scramble and get the ball down field kepping teams alittle more honest IMO.

Also if our defense was at the level we were at the prevous two seasons the offense would be putting up enough point to have a far better record.

Portis is a top notch back who can do it all and plays hard.

Well, try to understand what the running game is in Al's offense. It's the big play element of the offense. He uses the passing game to move the chains. Keeps it short, underneath, keeps drives moving.

He "takes shots" by running the ball. If the defense creeps up, and Portis can break through that first line, he's gone. So I would argue that Saunders is trying to get the D to creep up on him.

Portis is a home run hitter at RB, and I think that's how Al is trying to use him. Not to grind out the clock like last season.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Say anything you want about how Brunell is "unable to stretch the field" (or any other subjective arguement), but when your numbers look like that and your offense ranks in the top ten in efficiency and scoring, you are not a problem, plain and simple.

if Yards Per throw ATTEMPT (not completion) were a stat, would you care then? what about 'doesn't throw vertical' or 'over the middle' is subjective?

how's Portis's YPC by the way? has he broken any "homeruns"? if you're basing the offense purely on how KC played, why isnt Cooley thrown to downfield like Gonz was?

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by offiss

How many yards per carry? If you run a guy enough times he could eventually get 2000yds if he was capable of holding up. What's more important for an everydown running back, yds. per carry, or total yds? I say no question yds per carry, and if I am right about that then CP was the worst everydown back in the NFL that year, theres no getting around it. Just because Gibbs choose to run him into the ground to legitamize the signing is meaningless as far as I am concerned. And by the way Betts is averging more YDS per carry this year than Portis, and Betts comes in to get the tough yards.
...

I totally disagree on the YPC vs. total yards argument. If YPC were so much more valuable, Barry Sanders would have 3 Super Bowl rings. I'll take a back like Emmitt Smith, or Portis for that matter, who gets the tough yards instead of dancing in the backfield for a loss. John Riggins is another classic example of a runner who ground out tough first downs. Few people realize that Barry Sanders ALWAYS led the league in negative yardage rushes, often putting his teams in long yardage situations. Detroit's inconsistency sustaining drives was directly related to being forced to pass. And don't tell me about Sanders' lame O-line - he had Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover, both Pro Bowlers. But enough of that tangent.

Portis is the right back for this offense, and once the O-line does a better job, including pass protection to allow Brunell to get the ball downfield, Portis will see fewer "8 in the box" schemes. And BTW, his 4.3 YPC average last year was more than respectable.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by illdefined

if Yards Per throw ATTEMPT (not completion) were a stat, would you care then? what about 'doesn't throw vertical' or 'over the middle' is subjective?

how's Portis's YPC by the way? has he broken any "homeruns"? if you're basing the offense purely on how KC played, why isnt Cooley thrown to downfield like Gonz was?

Yards per Attempt is a stat, in fact, I don't think I've ever thrown out a YPC stat...ever. All of my stats are YPA.

Vertical and over the middle are open to interpretation, therefore they are subjective. So is "homeruns" while you are at it.

I don't know what Cooley's deal is, but he is in pass protection a lot. It's a poor use of his talent, IMO, but a necessary one.

Portis' YPC is 4.2, down about a half yard from last year. But Brunell was the QB both years (and is playing better this year), so it's obviously not his fault.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yards per Attempt is a stat, in fact, I don't think I've ever thrown out a YPC stat...ever. All of my stats are YPA.

Vertical and over the middle are open to interpretation, therefore they are subjective. So is "homeruns" while you are at it.

I don't know what Cooley's deal is, but he is in pass protection a lot. It's a poor use of his talent, IMO, but a necessary one.

Portis' YPC is 4.2, down about a half yard from last year. But Brunell was the QB both years, so it's obviously not his fault.

"homeruns" was your term, not mine. that stat shown in game 2 about Brunell throwing outside the numbers more than anyone in the NFL looked pretty empirical to me. and finally Brunell is the same from last year but our O-Line isn't? you're comparisons with players this year vs. last year are just as "inconsistent".

[The Zimmermans]

brunell is older, slower, with less arm strength than last year, don't give me that "better than last year" crap. He has scrambled for like one first down this year. He had some big time scrambles last year, plus he was more on cue with santana last year.

He's gotten worse, I hate how he hides injuries, and plays through them, which severely hurts the team in the end. If he can't do it, he should take a week off.

When portis doesnt play the whole game, we always lose, without him, we don't got much. If we bench brunell for ANYBODY that might change.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yards per Attempt is a stat, in fact, I don't think I've ever thrown out a YPC stat...ever. All of my stats are YPA.

Vertical and over the middle are open to interpretation, therefore they are subjective. So is "homeruns" while you are at it.

I don't know what Cooley's deal is, but he is in pass protection a lot. It's a poor use of his talent, IMO, but a necessary one.

Portis' YPC is 4.2, down about a half yard from last year. But Brunell was the QB both years (and is playing better this year), so it's obviously not his fault.

Portis's numbers are actually down just .1 yard from last year, not half a yard a carry. And if Saunders thinks that big plays should come out of the running game, he shouldn't have a job. That's not something you can count on in the NFL. There are too many good players on defense to try to rely on the offensive line and running back to make huge plays. Big plays have to come from the passing game. And that's not supposed to all be 12 yard passes and Santana in space. The ball needs to fly down the field.

I don't understand how anyone can watch the NFL and say that Mark Brunell is just as good as about half of the regular NFL starters. Other guys stretch the field. And I don't want to see his numbers compared to winning quarterbacks because Brunell isn't playing well enough to win. That's very subjective. That's based on a game by game basis. If he were playing well enough to win they'd be winning! And as for time of possession, that's his damn fault! If the ball kept moving, they Skins O would stay on the field. They don't move the chains because Brunell handles a 3rd and 8 by throwing to whoever is closest to him. It's disgusting.

[That Guy]

GT, part of the ToP MAY also be due to the offense not running ball control and going 3 and out so much. the defense has sucked, but offense hasn't helped them out at all.