Here Goes Nothing ...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.

As far as the kids spitting and such on bodies. Granted, Saddam killed a lot of people, but we are seen as the aggressor, and I can understand it. These kids, many growing up seeing much of the violence that we've seemingly brought to the nation that wasn't in every day view before. They see death every day, their idea of a good day is not having to bury a family member who dies from useless violence, a random car bomb aimed at US soldiers. While I'm not standing up for Saddam, he was an awful human being. From what I understand, his killings weren't exactly random. Don't piss Saddam off, stay alive. I'm not sure on that, just how it was explained to me and from the bit of reading I've done on it.

As far as papers not reporting positive news. They do. But saying everything is fine and well isn't a headline. Would you buy a paper that said "EVERYTHING'S OKAY!" Also, negative events come in one big splash. BOOM, something bad happened. Everything being okay is a gradual process. It's not that papers get in their meetings and say "Okay, we need to find a way to make this look bad!"

Find me a couple positive main stream media reports on the war. I mean stuff the average American will see or hear. CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, and I bet you end up using FOX news as the only one giving anything positive. I don't think they get in the room and only look for bad but there is plenty of good that they must ignor. Your stuff about the kids spitting that going way back when the war started. How come they don't show the troops in a positive light that goes on in over 90% of the country. We only get what happens in a very small area of Iraq.Yes, the media looks for stuff to bash the president for and it has shown itsself again in the firing of those 9 judges which they are making such a big deal about. Clinton fired 94 judges in one day and had travel gate which the News did not feel was important so why is this? Oh, and those 94 judges are allot more than the 9 that Bush Admin. fired and they do not even have to have a reason to let them go.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.

I didn't mean to imply that we Americans, Christians, etc. do not find fascination with violence, car accidents, etc. But there's a big difference between the kind of violence we watch (e.g., Jerry Bruckheimer films or Cops) and the kind of violence large segments of the Iraqi populace indulge in (e.g., an innocent journalist's head is slowly sawed off with a knife). It's a matter of degree; watching "The Terminator" is different from watching what amounts to a snuff film from Baghdad.

*I obviously am not saying that all Iraqis, Muslims, Middle Easterners, etc. indulge in such sadistic stuff. I am positive that the majority of Iraqis, Muslims, etc. do not agree with such violence, want to live in peace, and raise nice families just like you and I.

As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.

[Daseal]

As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.

Sorry, I was a bit out of it when I posted. What I was trying to convey is that they are reported, they just aren't front page reports. Firstdown, a majority of Americans don't read and watch the news for what, 30 minutes a day? There's not really enough time. If you really want me to dig through The Washington Post, NY Times, etc, etc I will. They aren't front page stories, but they are there.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Sorry, I was a bit out of it when I posted. What I was trying to convey is that they are reported, they just aren't front page reports. Firstdown, a majority of Americans don't read and watch the news for what, 30 minutes a day? There's not really enough time. If you really want me to dig through The Washington Post, NY Times, etc, etc I will. They aren't front page stories, but they are there.

You will have a hard time finding one I searched and had no luck.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I didn't mean to imply that we Americans, Christians, etc. do not find fascination with violence, car accidents, etc. But there's a big difference between the kind of violence we watch (e.g., Jerry Bruckheimer films or Cops) and the kind of violence large segments of the Iraqi populace indulge in (e.g., an innocent journalist's head is slowly sawed off with a knife). It's a matter of degree; watching "The Terminator" is different from watching what amounts to a snuff film from Baghdad.

*I obviously am not saying that all Iraqis, Muslims, Middle Easterners, etc. indulge in such sadistic stuff. I am positive that the majority of Iraqis, Muslims, etc. do not agree with such violence, want to live in peace, and raise nice families just like you and I.

As for the news reporting, I don't understand how you say that news agencies do report positive stories about Iraq and then turn around and say that positive stories don't sell papers and that positive stories are not as easy to report as bad ones since progress occurs over time.

I don't think that a large populace of Iraqis indulge in watching this kind of violence and would think that its a smaller number as in the ones doing the violence. A friend of mine who was over there a year or so back said that when they are attacked and you see these people jumping up and down mostly happens when the news shows up in most cases. He told me of a bombing and about these 8 or 9 Iraq guys in their 20's were helping them and when the news showed up they stoped and started doing that stuff. They still fear for their lives for two reasons. One he said is that they still have the fear of the Sadam type and people coming to kill them and their famile. He said this is a fear that they have lived with all their life and have not yet learned how to live without it. The other is a real fear of armed gangs coming to kill them for helping the Iraq goverment and the Americans. He said this is a real fear but is not as common as one would think from the news reports we get which he said was way over blown.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I don't think that a large populace of Iraqis indulge in watching this kind of violence and would think that its a smaller number as in the ones doing the violence. A friend of mine who was over there a year or so back said that when they are attacked and you see these people jumping up and down mostly happens when the news shows up in most cases. He told me of a bombing and about these 8 or 9 Iraq guys in their 20's were helping them and when the news showed up they stoped and started doing that stuff. They still fear for their lives for two reasons. One he said is that they still have the fear of the Sadam type and people coming to kill them and their famile. He said this is a fear that they have lived with all their life and have not yet learned how to live without it. The other is a real fear of armed gangs coming to kill them for helping the Iraq goverment and the Americans. He said this is a real fear but is not as common as one would think from the news reports we get which he said was way over blown.

Again, this is the type of thing that never make the papers, or the news. generally same old, same. Don't want us there. Making it worse. Losing ground. Getting our boy's killed for nothing. that's the message of a biased press

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Again, this is the type of thing that never make the papers, or the news. generally same old, same. Don't want us there. Making it worse. Losing ground. Getting our boy's killed for nothing. that's the message of a biased press

If for anything else it would be nice to see our servicemen get some recognition for the work they do and not the "oh we support the troops, But" all the time. I don't care if one for or against the war it would just be a nice change for them.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by firstdown

If for anything else it would be nice to see our servicemen get some recognition for the work they do and not the "oh we support the troops, But" all the time. I don't care if your for or against the war it ould just be a nice change for them.

I actually think they're getting lots of love from the media, general public, officials, etc.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I actually think they're getting lots of love from the media, general public, officials, etc.

One of the biggest chips a buddy of mine had on his shoulder (he just got back from a year long tour in Iraq) was that no-one reports on how much progress has been made.

There really isn't many articles talking about what's been done, as opposed to the violence that's going on.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

One of the biggest chips a buddy of mine had on his shoulder (he just got back from a year long tour in Iraq) was that no-one reports on how much progress has been made.

There really isn't many articles talking about what's been done, as opposed to the violence that's going on.

He should know

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I think one problem with the press and the public perception of the war is that the Bush administration made unreasonably rosy projections about how smoothly the post-Saddam Iraq would run. Had the administration been prepared for the insurgency and told the public that it is going to be a long hard road in Iraq, we are going to face tough Al Qaeda types, etc. before and after we went in, I think public support for the war would be higher right now. The Administration did a great PR job in getting us to go to war, but they did a horrible PR job of preparing us for what the war would entail and how long it would last.

It's kinda sad, but the Administration's handling of the PR situation is very reminiscient of the Iraq Information Minister's handling of our invasion. Remember how he used to say, "everything is under control, the Americans will be slaughtered like pigs in the streets of Baghdad," while U.S. tanks rolled right past his position? Instead of constantly telling the public that the insurgency amounted to little more than "Saddam dead-enders" and "Mission Accomplished," they should have been bracing us for the worst and hoping for the best.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

One of the biggest chips a buddy of mine had on his shoulder (he just got back from a year long tour in Iraq) was that no-one reports on how much progress has been made.

There really isn't many articles talking about what's been done, as opposed to the violence that's going on.

I was in ROTC, but I left in 2000 a year before getting my commission as a 2nd LT in the Army. Every last one of my classmates have all gone to Iraq, Afghanistan, or both and they give me very mixed signals. The friends who served in Iraq in 2003-mid 2005 were 100% behind the mission and continue to support our presence. The friends who served from mid-2005 to 2006 seem to be less supportive of the mission (including a friend who served in the 75th Ranger Regiment in both Afghanistan and Iraq).

I do hear some common themes from these guys though. They all told me how amazingly nice and hospitable most Iraqis are and how they genuinely felt bad for citizens simply caught in the cross-fire. One friend told me that these people were so amazingly poor, yet would invite Americans into their homes to eat what little food they had. Some of my friends also told me, however, that the brutality of the insurgents is so ridiculous that it's frustrating to hear about things like Abu Grahib (where we were so inhumane as to scare prisoners with dogs). I think these guys didn't like what was going on at Abu Grahib, but that they were frustrated because the press has no sense of proportionality (cutting off heads of civilians is different from failing to appoint POWs independent counsel).

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think one problem with the press and the public perception of the war is that the Bush administration made unreasonably rosy projections about how smoothly the post-Saddam Iraq would run. Had the administration been prepared for the insurgency and told the public that it is going to be a long hard road in Iraq, we are going to face tough Al Qaeda types, etc. before and after we went in, I think public support for the war would be higher right now. The Administration did a great PR job in getting us to go to war, but they did a horrible PR job of preparing us for what the war would entail and how long it would last.

It's kinda sad, but the Administration's handling of the PR situation is very reminiscient of the Iraq Information Minister's handling of our invasion. Remember how he used to say, "everything is under control, the Americans will be slaughtered like pigs in the streets of Baghdad," while U.S. tanks rolled right past his position? Instead of constantly telling the public that the insurgency amounted to little more than "Saddam dead-enders" and "Mission Accomplished," they should have been bracing us for the worst and hoping for the best.

I'd have to disagree as Bush has said all allong that it was not going to be easy. I think that we saw in the first Desert Storm and in the beging of the 2nd. we could do what we wanted as far as the war went. We then get there and things slow down and we are not use to this. I would also say that I don't think many thought that these people would flood in there to fight as they have done. I know ther are people saying that they warned of this but the only warnings I remember is of the thousands of Americans that would die in the first stages of the war. Then that didn't happen so now they are saying they warned of this. I will agree that the Mission Accomplished was not a good idea but that also tells me that our Generals did not expect this insurgancy after we took hold in Iraq. I do remember that Information Minister doing that press conference as the tanks where rolling in and the press guys telling him that we had tanks just over the hill behind him but he just keep on talking.

[Hog1]

Maybe America is fat, spoiled, and "I" oriented. We would like our wars to get wrapped up in a long holiday weekend. We expect results as in "Desert Storm One", with very few allied casualities, and tremendous losses from the opposition.
We are unaccustomed to shedding the blood, war demands.
It has been many years since this country has experienced the kind of loss from the Great War, Guadalcanal, D-Day, Chosin Reservoir, or even Vietnam. While this by no means compares to those, we don't like it. It doesn't run on a schedule. It's not over until it's over.
I believe 9-11 brought us to a new reality. We will fight the terrorist factions, either on their home ground or our own! Maybe both................maybe forever.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Maybe America is fat, spoiled, and "I" oriented. We would like our wars to get wrapped up in a long holiday weekend. We expect results as in "Desert Storm One", with very few allied casualities, and tremendous losses from the opposition.
We are unaccustomed to shedding the blood, war demands.
It has been many years since this country has experienced the kind of loss from the Great War, Guadalcanal, D-Day, Chosen Reservoir, or even Vietnam. While this by no means compares to those, we don't like it. It doesn't run on a schedule. It's not over until it's over.
I believe 9-11 brought us to a new reality. We will fight the terrorist factions, either on their home ground or our own! Maybe both................maybe forever.

I'm not sure about forever but I think we will be fighting terrorism for the rest of my life span. Its a shame that is what things have come to but maybe I could be wrong and I'd be more than happy to say I was wrong about this.