John McCain: What Went Wrong?

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by dmek25

my whole point with the ant analogy was that we can turn Iraq into a diplomatic stronghold, and with all the other chaos that the rest of the middle east lives in every day, its really not going to do much to deter terrorism around the world

I get you.
The thing about the Middle East is this. It's no secret that a hell of a lot Muslims think they are in some kind of holy war to kill all Americans, and those like us. (France, and the UK have bigger problems than us because of the Middle eastern influence within their own countries, It may get serious in both before long)
I think 911 taught us......they mean it. To do nothing (my ant post) invites more of the same. I don't know, for sure, what the right plan is. To date I have heard not heard anyone that does.
No, it has not been easy. From the beginning, (and at every oppurtunity) and to his credit, Bush stated, it will be a LONG road. Possibly Bush's biggest folly was to allow many (if not the majority) of American voters to fall out of love with the effort.
I think we have made serious progress. We have had no further attacks on American soil. It is not perfect by any means, what has gone on in Iraq. If we finish what we started, it may well be the NEW republic of the Middle East. It might aid in providing us, and our allies some peace. Time will tell.
We did not have a rule book, or Hoyle to go by. I don't think any military mind of consequence would agree that this can be run on a time-line. To many unknowns. I think what you see, is what you get. We are going to have to be in some level of..............Police action for the forseeable future to maintain that level of security.
If we pull out prematurely (which is NEVER good), it will be seen as an ENORMOUS victory for the enemy, and accelerate attacks worldwide. Something we cannot afford..........

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

After listening to Air America Radio (yes, I listen to it and to Rush Limbaugh to see what extremists on the left and right think), I'm starting to think that many Americans actually want to see "the surge" fail. Basically, Air America was predicting before the surge took place that it would fail and now is seemingly enjoying news of bombing attacks and suicide bombers killing people.

It seems like the right refuses to believe that Iraq is in very bad place, and the left refuses to believe that things in Iraq could improve with better leadership (e.g., Gen. Petraeus) and more resources (i.e., the surge). After years of rightfully complaining that our troops were woefully underequipped and undermanned, I don't see how those very same people can attack the notion of providing our forces with additional equipment and troops.

BTW, an interesting report from the "established" media seems to indicate that the surge may be working. YouTube - The Surge Is Working

Rant over

[RobH4413]

John McCain on the Daily show the other day.

They were down each others throats during the entire interview. The crowd really really loves John Stewart, and dislikes old pasty white guys.

Part 1:
YouTube - Straight-Talk Express: "In The Shop For Repairs Part 1"
Part 2:
YouTube - Straight-Talk Express: "In The Shop For Repairs Part 2"

I prefer the old pasty white guy.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I get you.
The thing about the Middle East is this. It's no secret that a hell of a lot Muslims think they are in some kind of holy war to kill all Americans, and those like us. (France, and the UK have bigger problems than us because of the Middle eastern influence within their own countries, It may get serious in both before long)
I think 911 taught us......they mean it. To do nothing (my ant post) invites more of the same. I don't know, for sure, what the right plan is. To date I have heard not heard anyone that does.
No, it has not been easy. From the beginning, (and at every oppurtunity) and to his credit, Bush stated, it will be a LONG road. Possibly Bush's biggest folly was to allow many (if not the majority) of American voters to fall out of love with the effort.
I think we have made serious progress. We have had no further attacks on American soil. It is not perfect by any means, what has gone on in Iraq. If we finish what we started, it may well be the NEW republic of the Middle East. It might aid in providing us, and our allies some peace. Time will tell.
We did not have a rule book, or Hoyle to go by. I don't think any military mind of consequence would agree that this can be run on a time-line. To many unknowns. I think what you see, is what you get. We are going to have to be in some level of..............Police action for the forseeable future to maintain that level of security.
If we pull out prematurely (which is NEVER good), it will be seen as an ENORMOUS victory for the enemy, and accelerate attacks worldwide. Something we cannot afford..........

Hog, what progress have we made in Iraq? Not a personal attack on you, but I hear people say, well kids are going to school again and now they have gas and running water, etc.

They had these things prior to the invasion, so how is that progress?
We're simply back at square one, if that. And by all accounts, many Iraquis, as demonstrated by the protest a couple of weeks ago, are anxious for Americans to go home.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Hog, what progress have we made in Iraq? Not a personal attack on you, but I hear people say, well kids are going to school again and now they have gas and running water, etc.

They had these things prior to the invasion, so how is that progress?
We're simply back at square one, if that. And by all accounts, many Iraquis, as demonstrated by the protest a couple of weeks ago, are anxious for Americans to go home.

First the schools over the past decade in Iraq had deminished so bad that attendence had droped to something like 53% and at one time their schools did very well. To use one protest of a very small % of people does not really support an argument. We have protest all the time in Washington but that does not mean that we all agree with what those few stand for. Its really hard to a grip on the progress that is made because the media refusses to do any story that is of a positive nature on Iraq and we get a one sided story.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by firstdown

First the schools over the past decade in Iraq had deminished so bad that attendence had droped to something like 53% and at one time their schools did very well. To use one protest of a very small % of people does not really support an argument. We have protest all the time in Washington but that does not mean that we all agree with what those few stand for. Its really hard to a grip on the progress that is made because the media refusses to do any story that is of a positive nature on Iraq and we get a one sided story.

But the question has to be asked -- is this why we are there? Is it now the responsibility of the United States military to make sure schools around the world are adequate?

How many American lives is it worth to see to it that Iraqi schools are operating, or that there's running water and electricity? If the war supporters are forced into a position of pointing out how fast the basic utilities of that country are being rebuilt (after we destroyed them in the first place) -- if that's "progress" to them, then they are truly grasping at straws here.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

But the question has to be asked -- is this why we are there? Is it now the responsibility of the United States military to make sure schools around the world are adequate?

How many American lives is it worth to see to it that Iraqi schools are operating, or that there's running water and electricity? If the war supporters are forced into a position of pointing out how fast the basic utilities of that country are being rebuilt (after we destroyed them in the first place) -- if that's "progress" to them, then they are truly grasping at straws here.

Exactly, this is truly the fundamental question. To focus on the progress or lack thereof schools have made is to really become distracted with the real issue here.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

After listening to Air America Radio (yes, I listen to it and to Rush Limbaugh to see what extremists on the left and right think), I'm starting to think that many Americans actually want to see "the surge" fail. Basically, Air America was predicting before the surge took place that it would fail and now is seemingly enjoying news of bombing attacks and suicide bombers killing people.

I think there's actually a good explanation for this. In a sense, if the "surge" shows progress, then that only gives credence to those that say more troops are the only way to get the job done for a job that many Americans believe isn't worth it to begin with. And from there, it's certain that more lives will be lost in the process.

Either way, more Americans are going to be killed in an unjust "war" regardless if the surge works or not.