Joyner: Cooley underrated

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Product of offense? Maybe? Possibly?

All you've done is shown that Gates has been given a lot more oppertunities in his career. This would be a stupid point to debate anyway.

I think that given identital oppertunites that Winslow would produce a bit more than Gates. I also happen to think Winslow is the better blocker which is half of a TE's game anyway.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't see how in the world you could think its absured. Why have a discussion fourm if only conventional logic can be right?

We can't discuss TEs and not look at blocking first. We just can't.

What I've shown is Gates has been a very productive TE in this league for several seasons, and Winslow has a long way to go before he is in the same class of Gates.

It's your personal opinon that Winslow is better, that's fine but I just thought maybe you had something more solid to back up your take with.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What I've shown is Gates has been a very productive TE in this league for several seasons, and Winslow has a long way to go before he is in the same class of Gates.

It's your personal opinon that Winslow is better, that's fine but I just thought maybe you had something more solid to back up your take with.

Well, then by the same standard, wouldn't Desmond Clark be better than Chris Cooley?

Yes, Gates has been very productive from several seasons, and good for him, but based on what the Chargers have tried to do on offense these last few years, I don't think Gates has been better than what we should have expected from the position and team. Winslow, I believe, has been better than what we expected from the position and team, albeit in very limited time.

Thats my case.

[JoeRedskin]

It cracks me up how, sometimes, it takes 40 or 50 posts before someone's arguments finally devolve into " 'cause I said so" - even though that was obvious to everyone else at the beginning.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Product of offense? Maybe? Possibly?

All you've done is shown that Gates has been given a lot more oppertunities in his career. This would be a stupid point to debate anyway.

I think that given identital oppertunites that Winslow would produce a bit more than Gates. I also happen to think Winslow is the better blocker which is half of a TE's game anyway.

Even if I'm wrong, I don't see how in the world you could think its absured. Why have a discussion fourm if only conventional logic can be right?

We can't discuss TEs and not look at blocking first. We just can't.

Evaluating a TE based primarily on blocking skills is kind of conventional isn't it? But why evaluate TEs only by conventional thinking? Maybe the position has evolved.

In the words of Doc Brown, "You're not thinking 4th dimensionally"

[GridIron26]

Originally Posted by bedlamVR

Okay now you are on crack ...

One of my favorite Cowboys players has to be Witten.. he is a chain mover as is Cooley . I actually don't rate Gates that much, he is amongst the best in the leauge but he is esentially a converted basket ball player with limited moves, speed and has questionable blocking skills . What SD do well with him is ask him to go out there and esentially go for the jump balls .

You have the great TE's in history like Mike Ditka etc but they are often overlooked . In the Dallas reign of terror 92-96 I think the most valuble offensive players they had were in order, Aikmen, Smith, Novacheck, Allen, Irvin .

When I think of great TEs right now i like Ben Watson in NE, Dallas Clark as fantasy stud last year on my team, Jason Witten, Chris Cooley, Tony G - but only as a pass catcher, he is not the best blocker in the world, Vernon Davis - was ripping it up before his injury, and Kelen Winslow .

I also think the eara of the great TE is still to come but if you have a top flight all round skills like Cooley you do not let him walk because you simply cannot go out and replace them. It is a undervalued possition in the collages and NFL, often spare tackles who can catch get stuck on the end as a TE.

........

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Evaluating a TE based primarily on blocking skills is kind of conventional isn't it? But why evaluate TEs only by conventional thinking? Maybe the position has evolved.

In the words of Doc Brown, "You're not thinking 4th dimensionally"

Good point. After careful analysis and much thought, I came to the conclusion that about half of a TEs value comes from his blocking ability, his most vital asset.

Feel free to disagree though. I suppose a good case could be made that all TEs block similarly, and that the only value of a TE is in his pass catching ability. I just don't think the position has evolved all that much.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Replaceable implies that its not all that hard to find. I mean, some very good players can be replaceable, but only at positions in which such skills are quite common for the league.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's easy to find someone else that can do what Cooley does, but it's not like it's impossible. So to me that means he is replaceable. To me, at the TE position, from a pass catching standpoint, Gates and Tony G. are real tough to replace. And I think Vernon Davis is going to be in that league too.

[GTripp0012]

To clarify, I don't think that, outside of Quarterback, you can look at any position without looking at blocking, but with TE and OL, its so vital that if you can't block, you probably shouldn't be on the field.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's easy to find someone else that can do what Cooley does, but it's not like it's impossible. So to me that means he is replaceable. To me, at the TE position, from a pass catching standpoint, Gates and Tony G. are real tough to replace. And I think Vernon Davis is going to be in that league too.

I don't agree at all with your perception of Cooley the player, but given that perception, I think your analysis of the situation is top notch.

I mean, while attepting to approach the situation objectively (as a Skins fan), it's easy to overlook some of the really really special things he does. I've said it a million times, but the way he gets up the field after the catch on every single play is irreplaceable. He's better at it than any TE in the league, maybe ever, and I think hes the bestTE in the league, with regards to the passing game.

With that said, there are better blockers out there with more than respectable receiving skills. Crumpler, Gonzalez, and Heap come to mind. All are great TEs, and their complete game is comprable, possibly better than Cooley's.

Problem is, players like this come out of college once every...2 years I'd estimate. They tend not to be the highest rated player at their position coming out because for whatever reason, NFL scouts value athleticism in TEs more than they value TE-like skills.

I don't know exactly where I'd rate Cooley, but I'd throw him right up there in the upper echilon with Gonzo, and Heap, and Crumpler.

[JDALY27]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

It just comes down to the whole concept of who is replaceable or not.

The reason I wanted Okoye so bad in the draft is because we will never ever be able to aquire someone like him again.

The same goes for Cooley. His game is so unique from every other TE that if you let him walk, now you have to change the whole offense to account for that.

Derrick Dockery was a loss, but not an irreplaceable one. Cooley could not be replaced.

Lets wait to see what Okoye really is. How about waiting to see what Landry is as well. Dockery......who is that????????

Cooley is definately the man. Would hate to loose him.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

It cracks me up how, sometimes, it takes 40 or 50 posts before someone's arguments finally devolve into " 'cause I said so" - even though that was obvious to everyone else at the beginning.

Well said.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, then by the same standard, wouldn't Desmond Clark be better than Chris Cooley?

Not the same comparison at all.

Cooley at least has a few years under his belt where we can better judge him as a player and compare him to his peers. Winslow has just one complete season under his belt. Personally I'd like to see more of him before I put his name up there with the current top TEs.

Clark's numbers aren't that impressive anyway. In 8 seasons he has 218 catches, 2522 yards and 20 TDs.

In just 3 seasons Cooley has 165 catches, 1822 yards and 19 TDs.

Cooley >> Clark.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't agree at all with your perception of Cooley the player, but given that perception, I think your analysis of the situation is top notch.

I mean, while attepting to approach the situation objectively (as a Skins fan), it's easy to overlook some of the really really special things he does. I've said it a million times, but the way he gets up the field after the catch on every single play is irreplaceable. He's better at it than any TE in the league, maybe ever, and I think hes the bestTE in the league, with regards to the passing game.

With that said, there are better blockers out there with more than respectable receiving skills. Crumpler, Gonzalez, and Heap come to mind. All are great TEs, and their complete game is comprable, possibly better than Cooley's.

Problem is, players like this come out of college once every...2 years I'd estimate. They tend not to be the highest rated player at their position coming out because for whatever reason, NFL scouts value athleticism in TEs more than they value TE-like skills.

I don't know exactly where I'd rate Cooley, but I'd throw him right up there in the upper echilon with Gonzo, and Heap, and Crumpler.

It's tough to say who is a really good blocking TE. I mean none of us fans have tape on these guys. But's hard not to think that Gates doesn't contribute at all in the blocking game. SD is one of the best rushing teams in the NFL and w/out good blocking, LT does not get all those TD's and yardage. So I would put Gates at the top of the list. Plus you can not ignore his production in the passing game. That speaks for itself.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So you are saying Cooley is a great TE? I wouldn't say that quite yet. I wouldn't put him in Gates or Tony G. league quite yet. He could get there. But he ain't there yet.

Judging by Cooley's stats over the past few years, he's been constantly in the top five. So it's kind of like Gates and Gonzo and then there's a HUGE dropoff between them and people like Cooley, Crumpler and Witten?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

It's tough to say who is a really good blocking TE. I mean none of us fans have tape on these guys. But's hard not to think that Gates doesn't contribute at all in the blocking game. SD is one of the best rushing teams in the NFL and w/out good blocking, LT does not get all those TD's and yardage. So I would put Gates at the top of the list. Plus you can not ignore his production in the passing game. That speaks for itself.

Observationally, I don't think Gates is a good blocker, BUT I have no evidence to the contrary, so your call is just as good as mine.