Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint

GoSkins! · 07-07-2007, 08:40 AM

I believe that Taylor made the Pro Bowl last year partly due to his play in the last 5 games the previous year. Many times, because of when the voting is one, it works out that a player gets rewarded a year late.

GTripp, I know that you are a big stats guy, but you do realize that stats can be manipulated, massaged, and misinterpreted, right? FYI, I'm an engineer and analyze ridiculous amounts of numeric data for a living and I can honestly say that the stats on Sean Taylor tell less about his worth than the things they don't collect stats on. An example could be how opposing offensive coordinaters have to limit thier game plan when he is on the field... which might make it easier of Fletcher to figure out the offensive formation, and in turn make the blitzing better, which will help pass coverage. It is kinda like when Dale Lindsey was keeping Arrington off the field based on him being out of position "x" number of times. Then when he gets to play, the running game solidifies and we win 5 straight to get to the playoffs.

I guess I'm just saying that stats are a great tool, and GTripp, you are really one of the best at using them and making sense of them, but be careful you don't fall into that rut I see some guys fall in where they can't see the forrest for the trees. Taylor's numbers suffered last year because he was had to try to cover for the LB's and CB's around him. The points are not irrelevent or simple.

djnemo65 · 07-07-2007, 09:20 AM

It just seems to me that the longer you watch sports the clearer it becomes that stats are overrated. In baseball fine but in football so much is unquantifiable.

Skins_4_Lyfe · 07-07-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

...I also thought his play in the Pro Bowl (not just the hit on the kicker, but his overall play) suggested what he is capable of given a competent supporting cast.

I noticed that too, perhaps it's GW's overrated scheme that is holding him back, just as it did Walt Harris.

Skins_4_Lyfe · 07-07-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

...No one can say a single word about Taylor after Roy Williams made it last year. He was pathetic absolutely pathetic last year in coverage.

I am continuosly saying this to Dallas fans, and they give me the "he gets picks" speach. Not realizing that Roy has great instincts and stays around the ball, but when the ball is in the air he chokes, I've never seen a player miss out on so many interceptions (besides Carlos Rogers) than Roy. His picks could have been more than doubled last year if he made better plays on the ball once thrown.

hesscl34 · 07-07-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Neither here nor there in a thread about pass coverage.

Still, quite entertaining.

was just nothing the HIT.. and his power behind it... It said something!

GMScud · 07-07-2007, 08:28 PM

Taylor was very good in coverage his first two seasons. He struggled last year at times, but that was more of a symptom of bad LBs in front of him and a secondary decimated by injuries around him. We asked him to do too much. But he played better late in the year. Remember that game saving tackle against Carolina??

Master4Caster · 07-10-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

From the article

Sean Taylor

Taylor made the Pro Bowl as an injury replacement, but the metrics make it clear he didn't earn the spot. He ranked 20th in both deep assist YPA and deep assist success percentage. He did even worse when in direct coverage, as his 10.7 YPA in those situations was the seventh worst in the NFL last year. He also gave up the second-most total yards of any coverage safety. Taylor did do a lot more to support the run last year than he did in years past, but even taking that into account, he really wasn't a Pro Bowl-level coverage safety last year.

Yeah, well ....

The whole defense sucked last year. You could find stats about every individual player. I got the impression that ST was trying to do too much to cover for breakdowns elsewhere in the secondary.

So here's the question. Conventional wisdom says a good pass rush helps the pass coverage. Our coaches say better coverage will lead to better pass rushing. They drafted LaRon Landry and have a lot of cornerbacks in camp, but no big moves on the d-line. Gre-double-GG is moving to Cover-1 to exploit Taylors pass covering abilities with Landry/Prioleau supporting the run & short passes.

Think it will work?

That Guy · 07-10-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

From the article

Sean Taylor

Taylor made the Pro Bowl as an injury replacement, but the metrics make it clear he didn't earn the spot. He ranked 20th in both deep assist YPA and deep assist success percentage. He did even worse when in direct coverage, as his 10.7 YPA in those situations was the seventh worst in the NFL last year. He also gave up the second-most total yards of any coverage safety. Taylor did do a lot more to support the run last year than he did in years past, but even taking that into account, he really wasn't a Pro Bowl-level coverage safety last year.

and his DLine was one of the worst ever, his LB crew was trash and his 2ndary was garbage... lots of injuries and AA/wright/rodgers/etc on the field. not good times.

CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR · 07-10-2007, 07:53 PM

Taylor one of the best hitting safties in football, but he has to be alot better in coverage. He killed us on his bad angles.

budw38 · 07-10-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RMSkins

I guess Joyner has no clue who John Lynch is, the most overrated safety in the leauge besides Roy Williams. How in the world does Joyner get away with putting Ed Reed, and Sean Taylor in the overrated list?, and forgets all about John Lynch who is the most deserving I mean this guy steals a pro bowl spot every year from a way more deserving safety just because his name is John Lynch. I will admit Lynch was a above average safety with the Bucs, but since he has been with the Broncos he has been horrendous.

He is not a young man , but he has been the hardest hitting safety since R.Lott, and he does not get out of position very often . I would have bet the ranch , had he been our SS next to Taylor , we would have the best Safety tandem in the NFL the last few years . If Landry plays at a high level early , and we get a pass rush , Taylor will be a top 3 - 5 safety .

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-11-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I realize I can come off condecening at times, but its frusterating to sit here and see two parties bicker over the irrelivant/simple issues.

Proper spelling is overrated. How's that for condescension? J/K.

GTripp0012 · 07-11-2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Proper spelling is overrated. How's that for condescension? J/K.

Whoa. Three spelling errors in a single post.

I've throughly been skooled.

GMScud · 07-11-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Proper spelling is overrated. How's that for condescension? J/K.

ZING!!!

Good to see ya Sheriff

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 07-11-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Whoa. Three spelling errors in a single post.

I've throughly been skooled.

Ha! I love to see someone who can take a good jab.

07-07-2007, 08:40 AM	#31
GoSkins! The Starter Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Yorktown, Va Age: 55 Posts: 1,587	Re: Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint I believe that Taylor made the Pro Bowl last year partly due to his play in the last 5 games the previous year. Many times, because of when the voting is one, it works out that a player gets rewarded a year late. GTripp, I know that you are a big stats guy, but you do realize that stats can be manipulated, massaged, and misinterpreted, right? FYI, I'm an engineer and analyze ridiculous amounts of numeric data for a living and I can honestly say that the stats on Sean Taylor tell less about his worth than the things they don't collect stats on. An example could be how opposing offensive coordinaters have to limit thier game plan when he is on the field... which might make it easier of Fletcher to figure out the offensive formation, and in turn make the blitzing better, which will help pass coverage. It is kinda like when Dale Lindsey was keeping Arrington off the field based on him being out of position "x" number of times. Then when he gets to play, the running game solidifies and we win 5 straight to get to the playoffs. I guess I'm just saying that stats are a great tool, and GTripp, you are really one of the best at using them and making sense of them, but be careful you don't fall into that rut I see some guys fall in where they can't see the forrest for the trees. Taylor's numbers suffered last year because he was had to try to cover for the LB's and CB's around him. The points are not irrelevent or simple. __________________ Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. A. Einstien

07-07-2007, 09:20 AM	#32
djnemo65 Playmaker Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,836	Re: Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint It just seems to me that the longer you watch sports the clearer it becomes that stats are overrated. In baseball fine but in football so much is unquantifiable.

07-07-2007, 08:28 PM	#36
GMScud Swearinger Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 12,626	Re: Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint Taylor was very good in coverage his first two seasons. He struggled last year at times, but that was more of a symptom of bad LBs in front of him and a secondary decimated by injuries around him. We asked him to do too much. But he played better late in the year. Remember that game saving tackle against Carolina?? __________________ Tardy

07-10-2007, 07:53 PM	#39
CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR Impact Rookie Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: va Age: 57 Posts: 890	Re: Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint Taylor one of the best hitting safties in football, but he has to be alot better in coverage. He killed us on his bad angles.

Joyner: Reed, Taylor Overrated from Coverage Standpoint

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