russia/ georgia

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

First off, Russia is not going to invade Poland over this. But if they did...

Your lack of understanding of the United States military is astounding. We would easily overwhelm the Russians in defense of Poland if necessary, in concert with other NATO forces. Our air and naval capabilities are far superior. We can strike faster from more places through the air than anybody else in the world, by far.

Keep in mind, if Russia invaded Poland we wouldn't just send a ground troop force into Poland. We would send air strikes into the heart of Russia and take out strategic targets: communication systems, power plants, military bases, etcetera. We would cripple their home defenses and cut off any invading force within Poland. This would not be difficult for our Air Force.

Our ground forces are stretched a bit thin these days, but keep in mind we have about 1 million active service men and women. We have active ground forces located at bases in Germany and throughout other parts of Europe. In conjunction with NATO forces and our air attacks, we would be able to successfully defend Poland... and Russia knows it.

Invade Poland no, disrupt and dismantle their bases, yes. Wow, you
a) seriously overestimate the value of Poland, b) drastically underestimate Russia, c) overestimate US military capabilities while it's bogged down in two wars.

I suggest you don't talk of going to war with Russia as if it's a trivial matter. You are talking about a nation with enough nuclear power to destroy the whole planet.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

a) seriously overestimate the value of Poland

Not arguing with other things you've said but you have now ignored the fact that we are OBLIGATED to defend Poland. By treaty. Rice wasn't just making that up. Maybe Poland has no intrinsic value to us but it represents a great deal in terms of keeping a organized and peaceful eastern block. Once Russia takes hold of Poland what happens then? Think they just stop? I'd be pretty worried about their next steps. And then the steps after those. This needs to be nipped pretty quick. We're using rhetoric right now because what else do we have?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Not arguing with other things you've said but you have now ignored the fact that we are OBLIGATED to defend Poland. By treaty. Rice wasn't just making that up. Maybe Poland has no intrinsic value to us but it represents a great deal in terms of keeping a organized and peaceful eastern block. Once Russia takes hold of Poland what happens then? Think they just stop? I'd be pretty worried about their next steps. And then the steps after those. This needs to be nipped pretty quick. We're using rhetoric right now because what else do we have?

The fact that we have a treaty is inconsequential with respect to what Russia might do. If you feel you're justified you won't care will you? I mean that's how the world has operated since the dawn of time....they are ignored or broken.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

The fact that we have a treaty is inconsequential with respect to what Russia might do. If you feel you're justified you won't care will you? I mean that's how the world has operated since the dawn of time....they are ignored or broken.

I am seriously not understanding you here. Are you saying we should just ignore our treaty obligations as we see fit?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Invade Poland no, disrupt and dismantle their bases, yes. Wow, you
a) seriously overestimate the value of Poland, b) drastically underestimate Russia, c) overestimate US military capabilities while it's bogged down in two wars.

I suggest you don't talk of going to war with Russia as if it's a trivial matter. You are talking about a nation with enough nuclear power to destroy the whole planet.

A) The "value" of Poland is irrelevant. They are a NATO member and we're obligated to defend them.

B) Russia is strong militarily, but not capable of stopping our stealth bombers from reaching deep into their heartland and taking out strategic targets.

C) If we had to defend Poland, I'm pretty certain we'd pull out of Iraq and redirect the troops to Poland.

[Schneed10]

This is a pointless discussion anyway. Russia would not invade Poland for a number of reasons, most notably they don't want to start a nuclear standoff with the United States.

Keep in mind, just as it was in the Cold War, nobody ever launched their nukes because they knew the other side would just end up doing the same... mutually assured destruction.

No country would ever have the incentive to actually launch nukes unless:

1) The enemy's nukes were no longer a threat or
2) The country's back was against the wall and had absolutely no other recourse.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I am seriously not understanding you here. Are you saying we should just ignore our treaty obligations as we see fit?

No, I'm say Russia doesn't give a shit about your treaty with Poland. As they see it, it's a matter of national interest to make sure they are not encircled.

[Miller101]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Not arguing with other things you've said but you have now ignored the fact that we are OBLIGATED to defend Poland. By treaty. Rice wasn't just making that up. Maybe Poland has no intrinsic value to us but it represents a great deal in terms of keeping a organized and peaceful eastern block. Once Russia takes hold of Poland what happens then? Think they just stop? I'd be pretty worried about their next steps. And then the steps after those. This needs to be nipped pretty quick. We're using rhetoric right now because what else do we have?

You know, just when you think Bush is done. Just when you think he CAN'T screw up anymore. Just when you think there ACTUALLY is light at the end of the tunnel....................The cold war is back. Geez! How in the heck can you screw up so much in so little time? It baffles me! It really does.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

A) The "value" of Poland is irrelevant. They are a NATO member and we're obligated to defend them.

B) Russia is strong militarily, but not capable of stopping our stealth bombers from reaching deep into their heartland and taking out strategic targets.

C) If we had to defend Poland, I'm pretty certain we'd pull out of Iraq and redirect the troops to Poland.

Do you realize what you're saying? Stealth bombers over Russia? Pull out of Iraq? You got to stop with Tom Clancy reading/playing/watching.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Miller101

You know, just when you think Bush is done. Just when you think he CAN'T screw up anymore. Just when you think there ACTUALLY is light at the end of the tunnel....................The cold war is back. Geez! How in the heck can you screw up so much in so little time? It baffles me! It really does.

You're dismissed, we already have a Dmek.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

Do you realize what you're saying? Stealth bombers over Russia? Pull out of Iraq? You got to stop with Tom Clancy reading/playing/watching.

Why is anything that I said at all unrealistic given the most unrealistic scenario (provided by you): that Russia would invade Poland?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You're dismissed, we already have a Dmek.

That's just sad, isn't it?

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

No, I'm say Russia doesn't give a shit about your treaty with Poland. As they see it, it's a matter of national interest to make sure they are not encircled.

I understand that but I don't get exactly what you think WE should be doing. All I am hearing is "Bush sucks". I guess I am just confused by your message here. How should we be handling this?

[Miller101]

Originally Posted by saden1

No, I'm say Russia doesn't give a shit about your treaty with Poland. As they see it, it's a matter of national interest to make sure they are not encircled.

I agree with you Saden. And this is exactly why I think our President should be smart enough to speak English!!! This fucking idiot that we got running things now is known for always making the wrong decisions at the right times!

I mean, if he was smart enough do you actually think he would have invaded a country without a real plan? Or do you think he would have been more accurate AND get this, ON THE SAME PAGE with the Iraqi government about withdrawing American troops? What about catching Bin Laden back in 2001? We did have him cornered there as you might recall. But Bush, in all of his wisdom, decides to let the local people catch him...........those people probably played poker with Bin Laden in his cave from time to time.

And now there is Russia. Whats next Bush? Its your move. Just please don't fuck this thing up!

[saden1]

Where did I say invade? Never ever have I said invade. I likened this situation to the Cuban Missile Crises from the start. Russia taking out bases in Poland is very realistic scenario, certainly more realistic than us jumping to defend Poland by pulling out of Iraq and bombing Russia with stealth bombers. You're not dealing with some two bit country like Iran here. This is Russia!

Also, they have a draft, we don't. So any action on the part of the US would require the reinstatement of the draft...you're making Dmek point for him BTW.