The Official Debate Thread (Round 1)

[mheisig]

I'll preface this post once again by stating my political affiliation since in this day and age arguments aren't judged by themselves but by the person making the argument: Long time Republican, thoroughly disgusted with and embarrassed by the Bush era. Frankly I don't like either one of these candidates, but I like Obama less and less and I've officially abandoned any and all hope for either aprt. I'll end up voting for whoever I feel is the lesser of the two evils at this point.

That being said, I agree the debate was pretty much a draw, but I would give the edge to Obama. In terms of what was said there was nothing surprising, just the usual talking points.

Where I think McCain lost ground was in his nonverbal behavior. He just came across as a cantankerous old man whereas I think Obama managed to project himself as a little more calm and a little more mature (oddly enough). I don't know what McCain's debate coaches are teaching him, but constant smirking and scoffing when your opponent is making a point just makes you look like a douchebag. Obama did a little of this, but not nearly to the extent as McCain. They'd be far more effective if, as their opponent is making a point, they would look him in the eye and look thoughtful and contemplative, rather than staring at the podium, the audience, or smirking the entire time.

Overall nothing surprising. Minor gaffes on both sides - I guess if the biggest news coming out of the debate is whether or not McCain muttered "horseshit" under his breath it was pretty much a non-event.

But hey, whatever helps the YouTube fodder. Any time we can get funny videos of Palin on here or someone to declare a candidate "a dope," I know this country is heading in the right direction.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by hooskins

You are saying that CNN, MSNBC, and FOX, yes FOX altered their video and are lying? Also these networks showed this clips from their OWN footage, not on YouTube.

I love how Republicans can find all sorts of excuses for this, yet they are ready throw all sorts of YouTube links saying Obama should not be the president because he didn't put his arm over his heart during the anthem. It's pathetic.

a) I'm not a Republican.

b) I've seen the footage and I agree, he probably is saying "horseshit" or some variant of it. Oh well. A presidential candidate cursed - stop the presses.

c) I'm not making any excuses for it. It is what it is - tacky debate tactics.

d) I'm not throwing up YouTube links for anything, and if I had to venture a guess I'd say that if anyone is throwing up YouTube links ad nauseum it would be the Democrats.

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by mheisig

a) I'm not a Republican.

b) I've seen the footage and I agree, he probably is saying "horseshit" or some variant of it. Oh well. A presidential candidate cursed - stop the presses.

c) I'm not making any excuses for it. It is what it is - tacky debate tactics.

d) I'm not throwing up YouTube links for anything, and if I had to venture a guess I'd say that if anyone is throwing up YouTube links ad nauseum it would be the Democrats.

I guess I rushed to conclusion. My apologies. I also don't consider myself a Democrat, but would not consider myself a Republican at all. I have voted for both parties in the past. For the record, I consider myself a conservative in many aspects(small government, states rights, fiscally, etc), but socially I am liberal(pro-choice, selective social programs,environment, foreign policy, etc). I really seem my ideals in line with Jefferson and the original "Democrat-Republicans".

Also I do not particularly put much weigh into these videos. I dont think its a big deal he said shit, but if that Obama video is being debated we should talk about this.

Finally I dont think anything is wrong with the amount of Palin videos, because people need to know she is an idiot and a terrible candidate. I dont get a cheap laugh off those videos, they terrify me.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by hooskins

You are saying that CNN, MSNBC, and FOX, yes FOX altered their video and are lying? Also these networks showed this clips from their OWN footage, not on YouTube.

I love how Republicans can find all sorts of excuses for this, yet they are ready throw all sorts of YouTube links saying Obama should not be the president because he didn't put his arm over his heart during the anthem. It's pathetic.

One person put that video up in his sig. And I would venture to say 8 out of 10 Republicans here think it's an idiotic charge. It doesn't even remotely compare to all the Palin clips. Not even close

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by hooskins

I guess I rushed to conclusion. My apologies. I also don't consider myself a Democrat, but would not consider myself a Republican at all. I have voted for both parties in the past. For the record, I consider myself a conservative in many aspects(small government, states rights, fiscally, etc), but socially I am liberal(pro-choice, selective social programs,environment, foreign policy, etc). I really seem my ideals in line with Jefferson and the original "Democrat-Republicans".

Also I do not particularly put much weigh into these videos. I dont think its a big deal he said shit, but if that Obama video is being debated we should talk about this.

Finally I dont think anything is wrong with the amount of Palin videos, because people need to know she is an idiot and a terrible candidate. I dont get a cheap laugh off those videos, they terrify me.

We're in agreement on quite a bit: small government is my biggest passion, along with state's rights and fiscal policy. I am however staunchly pro-life, but I lean to the "left" when it comes to a lot of social programs (though I wish they were managed better), the environment (as long as it's keeping in line with small government) and my views on foreign policy are forever changing. At this point I almost take foreign policy on a case-by-case basis rather than make broad sweeping statements. I see many situations where I wish we had just not stuck our nose in other people's business, and I also see many situations around the world with cases of rampant genocide and injustice where we sit back and do nothing and it seems like a real crime.

I would submit that there is probably a slight difference with McCain muttering "shit" and the flap over Obama not putting his hand on his heart. The Obama issue a lot of people (particularly those in the military) view as unpatriotic and a slight to a long standing U.S. tradition. McCain's situation here is one of debate etiquette or just being uncouth. Frankly I don't see either one of them as a huge deal, but I wouldn't necessarily equate them. I would be curious to know why Obama didn't put his hand on his heart in that particular instance. Maybe it slipped his mind, maybe he was distracted, maybe he had a torn rotator cuff, who knows.

[saden1]

What is wrong with the Palin clips?

[firstdown]

The best part of the debate was when McCain was talking about the Russia/Georgia conflict. He started throwing out all this info on relationships of different groups and all this other stuff and when Obama was asked to reply he kind of said "Yea, what he said". It was obvious he had know clue what McCain was talking about.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

I've seen this posted and debated in several different threads. The argument that Obama's plan will only increase taxes on those making over $ 250K and 95% of taxpayers (actually 81% of households) would get a tax cut. However he has voted in the past to increase taxes on single taxpayers making as little as $ 42K and families making $ 90K. I don't care what his plan is, his voting record leads me to believe he'll increase taxes on a much larger scale than his "plan" says. Not to mention his proposed capital gains increases will affect many more people and small business.

Factcheck.org: McCain, Obama Both Got a Lot Wrong | Newsweek Politics: Campaign 2008 | Newsweek.com

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I've seen this posted and debated in several different threads. The argument that Obama's plan will only increase taxes on those making over $ 250K and 95% of taxpayers (actually 81% of households) would get a tax cut. However he has voted in the past to increase taxes on single taxpayers making as little as $ 42K and families making $ 90K. I don't care what his plan is, his voting record leads me to believe he'll increase taxes on a much larger scale than his "plan" says. Not to mention his proposed capital gains increases will affect many more people and small business.

Factcheck.org: McCain, Obama Both Got a Lot Wrong | Newsweek Politics: Campaign 2008 | Newsweek.com

No way. You don't think that Obama after he takes office will blame Bush for a bigger mess then raise taxes on even more people? Not Obama. Whats a voting record anyways.

[Beemnseven]

Here's the thing with the tax issue: Obama will raise taxes on rich people. We all know that, and he makes no bones about it. I don't like taxes raised on any income level -- I think taxes should be a flat rate for everyone, or there should be a national sales tax. Anything but what we have currently.

The problem is spending. Democrats are tax and spenders, while Republicans are borrow and spenders. As the great free market economist Milton Friedman once said, a tax cut without a corresponding cut in spending is not a tax cut.

So while McCain wants to lower taxes but lobby hard for this $700 billion bailout package, or continue spending $10 billion a month for Iraq, in the long run our national debt continues to pile up, the Treasury simply prints more money, and we, the great unwashed are hurt even more because our money becomes more and more worthless. That's why the containers of coffee, ice cream, milk and other groceries decreases while the price remains the same or increases.

In essence, we're paying more up front for all the spending with democrats. With republicans, you're passing the bill to your kids, and the purchasing power of your dollar is diminished.

Imagine if every two weeks, your paycheck saw a direct hit with each and every spending measure enacted by government? Suppose the $10 billion we're sending to Iraq was taken out of your paycheck right now, up front?

This bullsh*t war would be over in a heartbeat.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Here's the thing with the tax issue: Obama will raise taxes on rich people. We all know that, and he makes no bones about it. I don't like taxes raised on any income level -- I think taxes should be a flat rate for everyone, or there should be a national sales tax. Anything but what we have currently.

We agree here, I favor the FairTax.

The problem is spending. Democrats are tax and spenders, while Republicans are borrow and spenders. As the great free market economist Milton Friedman once said, a tax cut without a corresponding cut in spending is not a tax cut.

True. Unfortunately the Republican in the White House isn't a fiscal conservative, yet he claims he is.

Imagine if every two weeks, your paycheck saw a direct hit with each and every spending measure enacted by government? Suppose the $10 billion we're sending to Iraq was taken out of your paycheck right now, up front?

This bullsh*t war would be over in a heartbeat.

We differ on the war so I won't go over that again. But, interest on the national debt, Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid are a FAR greater chunk of the federal budget than defense. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more in taxes if I could be 100% assured that increased taxes would be used to fix these giant problems that are next on the radar screen a few years down the road when they get closer to critical mass. But we all know that once $$$ winds up inside the beltway it could go anywhere.