Redskins v Ravens Offensive GT Review: Skins lose turnover battle, game

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

Woah, i still think Moss should be the number one target. I would rather see him as the Z receiver because with Cooley and Moss on the same side of the field it would be harder for teams to double both of them. When Moss gets doubled Cooley should have a favorable match-up. And as the Z receiver he gets a free release and can go in motion.

Conversely, whoever plays X receiver would then have the benefits that Moss doesn't when he plays the X because teams focus on Moss.

Moss is still the best receiver on this team.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

If my offense totally sucks and can't score points I'm going to mix things up. Cause what we're doing isn't working. Now if I can sit here and name some things how come our coaches can't? It just baffles me. Anyway I'm going to do some of the following things.

1. Run Portis on some pass patterns and try and get him on a LB in space instead of simple check downs.
2. I'm going to have designed roll outs for JC.
3. I'm going to have some 2 TE sets with Davis and Cooley on the field at the same time.
4. I might try the wildcat a little bit and line Portis up in shotgun. Didn't Saunders do this in one game last year? I remember it cause it worked.
5. I'm going to throw deep on first dowm a little more.
6. I might have some formations where Betts and Portis and in the game at the same time.
7. I'm going to max protect some more on deep pass patterns so we can actually get the pass off. Even Chicago throws the ball downfield. They didn't complete any last night but they sure got some important PI's

There's some good ideas here, but also a lot of things we already do. I'll try to address this in brief.

1) The Redskins had a 3-4 game span where they put Portis in routes a lot, culminating in the massacre against Pittsburgh. It was somewhat effective, and Portis was maybe our most valuable receiver in October, and definately our biggest weapon in the passing game against Pittsburgh. Not so coincidentally, this also coincides with our 5 game span of the worst pass protection known to man.

2) Hooskins suggest this as well. Couldn't hurt, but I doubt it would help. JC is already seeing the field really well from the pocket.

3) Makes more sense than Yoder/Cooley sets.

4) Ultimately though, Zorn will never do this because he sees it as a gadget formation. Is he being stubborn? For sure. Would this solve all the problems with scoring points? Doubt it.

5) That's when Zorn takes his shots already. Although it wouldn't kill us to be more aggressive more often, I'd like to see shots taken on THIRD down. That's been our problem down all year, and it would give us the best chance to make big plays with Moss or Cooley. Our third down screens and draws have been largely effective, but I'd like to see Zorn scrap the easy to cover throws at the sticks and try to double move someone or just go deep.

6) Lots of this earlier in the year, none of it since Betts got hurt. I think there's a lot of creative ideas earlier in the year that Zorn has got away from, none more costly than the lack of misdirection. Of course, he's going to come back to them eventually.

7) We do max protect on our deep passes. We just don't help on the edge rushers. The one that Reed picked off, that was a deep throw to Devin Thomas, and Portis, for whatever reason, just didn't make the block on Suggs, who went around Samuels. But Portis and Cooley both stayed in on the play.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Woah, i still think Moss should be the number one target. I would rather see him as the Z receiver because with Cooley and Moss on the same side of the field it would be harder for teams to double both of them. When Moss gets doubled Cooley should have a favorable match-up. And as the Z receiver he gets a free release and can go in motion.

Conversely, whoever plays X receiver would then have the benefits that Moss doesn't when he plays the X because teams focus on Moss.

Moss is still the best receiver on this team.

I agree with you that if we switched Moss and Randle El in our formations, it might help both of them produce more. We use Randle El and Cooley in a lot of route combinations. Perhaps Moss would benefit from running these route combinations instead.

On non-timing plays though, Moss is still pretty effective. It's those three step drop or five step blitz beaters that he's really struggling with.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

There's some good ideas here, but also a lot of things we already do. I'll try to address this in brief.

1) The Redskins had a 3-4 game span where they put Portis in routes a lot, culminating in the massacre against Pittsburgh. It was somewhat effective, and Portis was maybe our most valuable receiver in October, and definately our biggest weapon in the passing game against Pittsburgh. Not so coincidentally, this also coincides with our 5 game span of the worst pass protection known to man.

2) Hooskins suggest this as well. Couldn't hurt, but I doubt it would help. JC is already seeing the field really well from the pocket.

3) Makes more sense than Yoder/Cooley sets.

4) Ultimately though, Zorn will never do this because he sees it as a gadget formation. Is he being stubborn? For sure. Would this solve all the problems with scoring points? Doubt it.

5) That's when Zorn takes his shots already. Although it wouldn't kill us to be more aggressive more often, I'd like to see shots taken on THIRD down. That's been our problem down all year, and it would give us the best chance to make big plays with Moss or Cooley. Our third down screens and draws have been largely effective, but I'd like to see Zorn scrap the easy to cover throws at the sticks and try to double move someone or just go deep.

6) Lots of this earlier in the year, none of it since Betts got hurt. I think there's a lot of creative ideas earlier in the year that Zorn has got away from, none more costly than the lack of misdirection. Of course, he's going to come back to them eventually.

7) We do max protect on our deep passes. We just don't help on the edge rushers. The one that Reed picked off, that was a deep throw to Devin Thomas, and Portis, for whatever reason, just didn't make the block on Suggs, who went around Samuels. But Portis and Cooley both stayed in on the play.

I brought this up in another thread and it's off topic a little bit. We need a back that can come out of the backfield and has the ability to take it to the endzone. Someone that's just a pure speed guy. A Reggie Bush, Leon Washington Felix Jones type of guy. Gibbs used Joe Washington out of the back field in the 80's. Betts is good but I'm talking about a guy that can really make people miss in the open field. This is something that should possibly be addressed in the offseason. It's never talked about but I like the idea.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I brought this up in another thread and it's off topic a little bit. We need a back that can come out of the backfield and has the ability to take it to the endzone. Someone that's just a pure speed guy. A Reggie Bush, Leon Washington Felix Jones type of guy. Gibbs used Joe Washington out of the back field in the 80's. Betts is good but I'm talking about a guy that can really make people miss in the open field. This is something that should possibly be addressed in the offseason. It's never talked about but I like the idea.

I agree, and openly am desiring that we use our 5th round pick on an offensive playmaker at RB who dropped because he couldn't handle the load of the position.

We used Betts in this role in 2005, but we haven't had a game-breaker since then.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

When teams have the resources to do so, they do like to double Santana Moss, however, teams don't have enough players on the field to put 8 in the box AND put a safety over the top on Moss. Teams with a single safety against the Redskins will put him in the middle of the field. So while when Moss was hot, teams were scared enough of him to alter their gameplans, that's no longer really the case.

Randle El, obviously, will never be the guy who pulls the strong safety out of the box. He's a complimentary receiver, and a darn good one if the guy he's complimenting is feared. He's also exactly what this offense needs for it's second receiver, a guy who's very dependable on 3rd and 6. Whether he works out of the slot or the outside depends on the play.

Basically, this team needs Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas to be a Plaxico-type target, and show enough deep ability to pull a safety out of the box. I think Santana could be lethal out of the slot, but he's only valuable when he's not the guy who people expect to get the ball, which isn't the case right now.

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

This doesn't surprise me. I don't feel like it's a knock on Moss either. The debate whether he's a legit #1 receiving target is sort of moot because the proof is in the pudding i.e. when there is another very potent target the defense has to be mindful of Moss becomes a 2nd #1 receiver in a sense. Moss is phenomenal after the catch, but IMO he lacks the skill of say Smith in Carolina to consistently get open (even against double coverage). We so need Thomas or Kelly to become a monster possession receiver - a #1 target really who has super-glue hands, the ability to snatch the ball out of the air under pressure and in heavy coverage (none of our WRs can do this today) and can consistently get some separation. Very hard to say at this point whether one of them can rise to the challenge. I honestly believe if one of these guys can become that guy during the off-season our offense will be ****ing fantastic next year (assuming we really go to work on the o-line).

GT it was really good to hear you say Campbell played well. To my untrained eye it's very hard to tell whether piss-poor protection and overall line performance is dragging JC down, but in this game especially felt like he was on his game and seeing the field well. I think Jason deserves serious props for this because it basically shows he is progressing while the offensive line disintegrates and he gets beat up most games. I feel more confident in JC now than ever before

[The Goat]

Also GT, I was wondering whether you think R. Thomas is on the decline. Prior to this year I thought he was our best run-blocker when healthy and a very good pass protector. Doesn't seem this way anymore (as you pointed out). Does he need to be replaced next year, and aside from him which lineman do you think need to be replaced for our offense to be effective?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Also GT, I was wondering whether you think R. Thomas is on the decline. Prior to this year I thought he was our best run-blocker when healthy and a very good pass protector. Doesn't seem this way anymore (as you pointed out). Does he need to be replaced next year, and aside from him which lineman do you think need to be replaced for our offense to be effective?

If his level of play stayed exactly where it is right now, I would say he's a liability to the team. Luckily, I think it's more of a down year sort of deal, but his best years are certainly behind him.

I think we can field a good offensive line next year with him at RG, but the coaches should meet him halfway and help him out a little bit with the scheme as he learns the new schemes.

Rabach must be replaced. The rest can stay, but depth must be added.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

GT it was really good to hear you say Campbell played well. To my untrained eye it's very hard to tell whether piss-poor protection and overall line performance is dragging JC down, but in this game especially felt like he was on his game and seeing the field well. I think Jason deserves serious props for this because it basically shows he is progressing while the offensive line disintegrates and he gets beat up most games. I feel more confident in JC now than ever before

It's hard for a lot of people to tell over the last five games, but it's night and day Campbell from Pittsburgh to New York and Baltimore. He was missing holes in the secondary against Pittsburgh, and generally was confused in the pocket, and held the ball too long. Now he's not holding the ball too long, knows exactly when his teammates SHOULD have the rush picked up, and knows where to go with the football.

It's basically been an entire season of maturation under our (the collective our, not just you and me) noses in the last five games, but we're stuck on what didn't happen against Pittsburgh and Dallas

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

This doesn't surprise me. I don't feel like it's a knock on Moss either. The debate whether he's a legit #1 receiving target is sort of moot because the proof is in the pudding i.e. when there is another very potent target the defense has to be mindful of Moss becomes a 2nd #1 receiver in a sense. Moss is phenomenal after the catch, but IMO he lacks the skill of say Smith in Carolina to consistently get open (even against double coverage). We so need Thomas or Kelly to become a monster possession receiver - a #1 target really who has super-glue hands, the ability to snatch the ball out of the air under pressure and in heavy coverage (none of our WRs can do this today) and can consistently get some separation. Very hard to say at this point whether one of them can rise to the challenge. I honestly believe if one of these guys can become that guy during the off-season our offense will be ****ing fantastic next year (assuming we really go to work on the o-line).

I should point out that Plax has never been a very reliable player at any point in his career either. But if they can bring the spectacular to the offense, I feel the consistency will come shortly behind.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I should point out that Plax has never been a very reliable player at any point in his career either. But if they can bring the spectacular to the offense, I feel the consistency will come shortly behind.

I don't want to have anything to do w/ Plax. Really I don't think we should have to focus on making another big addition to the WR position - can't always just count on recruiting already developed talent - the coaches should work like hell on Thomas/Kelly. IMO odds are one of those guys should have the talent/ambition to be the weapon opposite Moss.

Just hoping we spend FA money and draft picks on trench talent. Replace Rabach like you said. Bring in a franchise RT to replace Jansen (do you think Jansen can be persuaded to save us some money and move to the guard position or backup RT?) and get a monster DT. Oh, and another solid OLB. How's that for a Christmas wish list!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't want to have anything to do w/ Plax. Really I don't think we should have to focus on making another big addition to the WR position - can't always just count on recruiting already developed talent - the coaches should work like hell on Thomas/Kelly. IMO odds are one of those guys should have the talent/ambition to be the weapon opposite Moss.

Just hoping we spend FA money and draft picks on trench talent. Replace Rabach like you said. Bring in a franchise RT to replace Jansen (do you think Jansen can be persuaded to save us some money and move to the guard position or backup RT?) and get a monster DT. Oh, and another solid OLB. How's that for a Christmas wish list!

There's not a whole lot we can do with Jansen since most of his contract was already paid to him at the time. Not a whole lot of non-guarenteed cash in that deal for the first three years. Luckily, I don't really see Jansen has the huge problem others do. I think he's totally overmatched against elite ends, and will give up sacks to great players, but he generally knows what he's doing, and although his future is probably on the interior, we could do worse than to suck it up for one more year with him at RT.

And I hope either Kelly or Thomas is the solution, or a team that badly needs to hit on it's draft picks pissed away an entire opportunity to do so. Definately not looking WR in the draft this year.

[GTripp0012]

Campbell's attention to detail evident in delvelopment - Hog Heaven

Wrote a bunch of words here, basically proving that Jason Campbell's "regression" is nothing more than a bump in the road that he already overcame. Got too high after the Detroit game, torn down (literally, by NFL defenses), rebuilt, and now we have a solid QB again.

Can't seem to spell development correctly though.

[GTripp0012]

Yay! Game valuation!

Game Valuation
1. Jason Campbell
2. Mike Sellers
3. Ladell Betts
4. Pete Kendall
5. Casey Rabach
6. Santana Moss
7. Devin Thomas
8. Chris Samuels
9. Chris Cooley
10. Clinton Portis
11. Stephon Heyer
12. Antwaan Randle El
13. Jon Jansen
14. Todd Yoder
15. Malcolm Kelly
16. Randy Thomas
17. Justin Geisinger
18. James Thrash